Hi, I'm Kari. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee & Coco, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. So do you have a testimony today? I do, and it does feel very weird giving a testimony about it, but it's about New Zealand white wine.
I'm really obsessed with white wines from New Zealand lately. Like, they're really delicious. I love, like, them extra, like, crispy cold in the fridge. Mm-hmm. And I don't know, they're just so delightful. They're such a treat right now. Oh, that's fun. I don't know anything about wines. Like, do they... Do all white wines taste similarly?
Or do they... Is it, like... I mean, let's compare es- in terms of, like- ... Diet Coke versus Diet Pepsi kind of. Like, Diet Dr. Pepper. That kind of thing. Right. That's what I... Um, so you know how you can taste the difference between if they use, like, aspartame versus different sweeteners? Sweeteners, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Like a Diet Coke.
Like, like a Diet Coke versus a Coke Zero. Yeah. Right. So that's a note based on the, like, sweetener or the sweetness, right? Like, that creates different tastes, and wine has other different tastes. Like, whether it's dry or not depends on, like, how sweet it is, and I know so little about wine. I'm just explaining this because you might be the one person that knows less about wine.
But it is, it is crazy 'cause one of my jobs a couple of years ago was working for a wine and spirits company- Mm-hmm ... and there were, like, wine experts there, and I just di- had not developed that palate for obvious reasons. Mm-hmm. So now it's nice to, like, have a preference in, like, the different kind of wine I like and also, like, have, like, a region that I really like.
Like, I'm... I feel more- Ooh ... sophisticated. I don't know. Um- I love that ... and it is nice to have one that I'm like reliably, like, every time I've tried, like, even, like, with different notes, different white wines from- From New Zealand. I really like them, so it's become reliable for me on a menu. Okay. That's fun.
I love that. Okay. My testimony is on the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and I know that they are now called the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square, but I will always call them the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. That's just all there is to it. Um- It was better branding. It was... Well, you know, the MoTab. They call it the Tab Cats now- Yeah
'cause it's the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square. But I li- still like calling them the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Anyways, I love choir music. I love choir music. Mm-hmm. When you guys were in high school, you did the, the elite choir in high school, and that was my favorite thing that you guys did in high school.
Yeah. I loved listening to you in that choir. There's something about- Mm-hmm ... human voices singing that just resonates in, in my body- Mm-hmm ... in a different way that is just so beautiful, and I just love it. And so I was listening to some MoTab this morning while I was getting ready and stuff, and I really enjoy choirs.
Was there a good song you were listening to? Um, well, I was listening to a playlist of different ones, but, um, the one that, uh, I've mentioned it on here before, but it's called My Shepherd Will Supply My Need. Like, the line in it that I just love is, "No more a stranger, nor a guest, but like a child at home."
And I, every time I hear that, I just- Yeah. Feels warm in my heart. Yeah. Gives me a little jolt of the spirit. Yeah. No. Yeah. I do love, like, live music in general, and I do love now, like, when I... watching live music being like, "Uh, I felt the Holy Ghost," like, when it's not. Yeah. Like- I know ... like, when something just resonates with you in your heart.
And I also miss that part of church. Like, I do miss- Mm ... like, singing, having an excuse for a bunch of people to sing together, because it's so dorky to do in day to day. But even if you have, like, a group of 150 humans that aren't good singers, like- Mm-hmm ... human voices just sound good in a group. Like- Yeah
there are... Like, obviously, like, I was in choir. Like, I know that, like, there's technically better ones than others, but, like, in general, it does sound good, and it does feel good to participate in. So I do wish that there were more- Mm ... secular excuses to just sing with other people. I know. Once in a while I'll see on, on Instagram there are pop-up choirs that are just, like, for a few days.
Mm-hmm. And, and they'll do them in New York and in, in different places. And every time I see- Yeah ... one of those, I'm like, "Oh, Kimberly should go do this." Yeah. "She would love it." There's one, like, specific, like, one in New York that's really popular, but I don't do it because, um... not that I don't think I would enjoy it, but New York is so talented.
Like, there's so many talented people here- Oh ... that I just feel like I'd be bringing the, the vibe down, 'cause I haven't sang in years. And also, like, yeah, there's just, like, really great artists here and really great singers here. Mm. And, like, I don't know, maybe I'll participate eventually, but I do get scared.
I do get intimidated. Yeah. That... Yeah, I can see that, but it kind of makes me sad, 'cause you do have a lovely voice. Um- Oh, thanks. That same thing- Mm ... though does make karaoke in New York really cool. Like, any karaoke bar you go to- Oh ... there's someone there that can really sing. Yeah. And probably a few people And probably you don't sing as much.
No. Just- I, I sing- Yeah ... but, like, I sing- Okay ... like, with other people, and, like- Hmm ... I don't know, 'cause, like, it's acceptable- ... at, like, a drunk karaoke bar to be bad. Okay. So, like, this is fun. This is low risk, high reward. Yeah, love that. Okay. So what are we talking about today? Today I wanted to talk about temples, and I think that we could honestly probably do, like, five episodes on temples.
Um, but I just kind of wanted to talk about how, how we both relate to the temple and how we've related to it over time, and also what it looks like in our family now or in, in our relationship to each other, or, like, how I relate to my family. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to start off and just explain the difference between temples and churches in case there's anyone listening that isn't familiar.
So Mormons have both. Um, I know in other religions, like in the Jewish faith, temple refers to just, like, the general meeting house. Um, our general meeting house is the church. There's lots of churches. Towns can have multiple churches. Um, and they're not as great and spacious, I would say, but, like, anyone can go in them.
There's not as much, like, secrecy around them. Mm-hmm. But, um, the temple is... They're more rare. There's not as many around. Like, I was having a conversation with someone yesterday that was like, "There's a Mormon temple in Harlem," and I was like, "I assure you there is not. There is one Mormon temple in all of New York."
Um, so they're a little bit bigger, a little bit more spacious, and you can only get in with a temple recommend, and they're where more rare, um, covenants are made, or, like, less day-to-day re- rituals, more, like, special occasion rituals are done. Um, and it is really funny that we're doing this right now because it's actually been a decade since I've been able to go into a temple.
So my temple recommend expired about 10 years ago today. Or like around this time of year 10 years ago. Wow. That's interesting that, that you remember- I still have- ... like you have a specific date around it. Yeah. Well, I still have it, so I- Oh ... found it somewhat recently. Yeah. Um, I don't know why I kept it. I think it just kind of validates my experience in Mormonism, 'cause I know when you leave, like people act like you weren't a true Mormon, and I'm like, "No, this like had a huge influence on my life."
Yeah. Um, so I still have it, and I found it and I was like, wow, like Yeah ... I must have gotten my last one like around the beginning of my senior year of high school, or- Mm ... no, around my freshman year of college, um, which means that I probably lied on my temple recommend interview to get in, but- ... we don't need to talk about that.
No, we can't cut that part. I mean, it's fine. I, it happens. I'm not the only person. Yeah. No, for sure not. Like, I know people that got married in the temple that probably shouldn't have if they were- Mm-hmm ... following the rules exactly, but like what's the actual consequence of that? Like it's- Yeah ... it's not a big deal, you know?
Yeah. I don't think it actually hurts anyone. Yeah. Interesting. Um, so some of the covenants that happen in the temple are, um, baptisms for the dead, endowments, and sealings, and I think, you know, there's a few others that are more nuanced, like, you know, when you're baptized for the dead, you're also confirmed, receive confirmation for the dead.
Um, the endowment also involves the Washington anointing, which is kind of like a separate but associated covenant or ordinance. So because of that, you can't go to the temple until you're older except for if you are a child of a couple that is being sealed in the temple, because, um, members of the LDS faith do the sealing ordinance to seal your family together for eternity.
Mm-hmm. And if you are a couple that gets married in the temple and then you have kids together, um, those kids are born under that covenant, so you don't have to go each time a child is born to have them sealed to you. Um, however, if there's any kind of adoption or if your parents get married, have kids, and then decide to get sealed in the temple, um, those children will be there to be sealed as a family, and you got to go into the temple for that when you were a child.
Yeah. Do you remember that? Um, I do. I have some memories of it. Um, it's, you know, not really clear. Mm-hmm. Uh, just kind of pictures. I was... Must have been six or seven when I went Um, yeah. And so, you know, it was, it was a cool thing. It was, it was a day to be fussed over Which you love. Yeah, which is always fun.
But, um, yeah, lots of family there and, um, and I got to wear a pretty white dress, and it was a good memory. Yeah. And I was obviously born in the covenant under you and Dad, so I didn't go until I was 12. But I remember the temple being really significant to me even before I went because growing up, like, there's a picture of a temple in almost every ho- Mormon home.
Mm-hmm. You see them at church. Um, you also sing songs like, "I would love to see the temple." And so it's, like, really, like, ingrained in you. Like, I love to see the temple. I'm going there someday. Um, so I was really excited when I got to finally go when I turned 12. So when you- Mm-hmm ... turn 12, you get a special recommend, which is the only recommend that I ever got, which allows you to go into the portion of the temple where you can do baptisms for the dead.
So you're not doing endowments or sealings yet. Mm-hmm. But, um, we always made a trip of it because we lived in a, in a town that didn't have a temple, so we'd have, like, a Saturday where everyone would go to Salt Lake City together. We'd go to the temple. We'd all do our baptisms and confirmations for the dead together, and then we'd, like, go to Golden Corral and come home.
So it was, like, a whole event. Um, and it never felt weird to me growing up that I was being baptized for dead people. Um, like, I remember- Mm-hmm ... uh, writing down who, like, the first person I got baptized for, their name was Kate Kelly, and, like, thinking in the afterlife, like, I'd be able to find them and see if they, like, accepted the baptism.
Mm-hmm. Um- Yeah ... and I, I don't think I ever felt weird about it because, like, there was that explicit consent part that, like, on the other side of the veil, like, the dead person could accept the covenant you were doing for them or not. Right. Um, obviously, like, reevaluating some feelings and having some distance away from it, I feel differently.
Mm. But at the time, like, it just felt like a special thing to do. Um- Mm-hmm ... how did you feel about the church or ab- sorry, how did you feel about the temple growing up? So when I was growing up- ... there was, uh, th- we didn't have a temple in Las Vegas yet. I grew up in Henderson down by Las Vegas, um, and they built that temple when I was in high school.
I was about 16 when they dedicated it. And so, um, before that, because you can go in, like you said, when you're 12, before that, we would do the same thing. We would drive to St. George, and we would make a day of it. We would always go to the Frost Stop in- Ooh ... St. George. That was our, our little... There's a little burger place that we would stop at- Mm-hmm
and we'd drive there and, you know, and it was always fun because it was a youth activity, so it was all of the, all of the kids, and it was just... wasn't a trip that you were taking with your parents. It was a trip that you were taking with, with your friends and stuff, and so that was always fun. The funny thing when I, that I remember about doing baptisms for the dead when I was young is that they, at that time, for whatever reason, they were trying to do as many as possible in as short amount of time as they could.
Mm-hmm. And so the, the guy that was doing the baptizing, he would, he would say the first prayer slow, and then he would say the rest of the prayers like an auctioneer. It was like so fast. It would just be like, ba-la-la-la-la, splash. Ba-la-la-la-la, splash. Like, 'cause you have to go y- you know- Yeah ... baptism by immersion, so you're in the water.
Anyways, but I remember, like, doing, like, 60 to 80 baptisms every time I went. Really? Yeah, yeah. Oh. Isn't that crazy? Like, ours was always, like, four or five, you know? I know. I know they changed that between, between- That's like waterboarding ... kind of like... Well, it wasn't real- Uh, well, it, I don't remember it being, like, super uncomfortable or whatever.
Yeah. But I was, but I always enjoyed water. Like, I wasn't afraid of water. And so I imagine that if you, if you were a little more timid about water, then, uh- Mm-hmm ... it might be kind of a scary thing. But, but no, we would do a ton of them, and then we would get- Hm ... a little card that would say that you did so many baptisms, and that's why- Oh, really?
they were, 'cause I think I still have a couple of those somewhere. We're such hoarders. A little bit. A, a little bit. Um. A little bit. Good memories. Anyway, so yeah, that's what I remember about when I was a youth. And then- Mm-hmm ... and then of course, like, when they opened, uh, when they built the temple in Las Vegas, that was super exciting.
We were so excited- Mm-hmm ... about it. And, and I worked at the, at the open house. We called it, we called it booty duty because as people were coming in, we would put slippers over, like, like they wear in hospitals or whatever- Mm-hmm ... slippers to protect the carpet, and then they would walk through. But we would...
There was a big tent, and we would sit and talk to people while we were putting their, these slippers over their shoes and, and that was kinda fun, but yeah. Was that your first temple open house that you went to? Uh- Was it in Vegas? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think so. There were a couple that we went to when I was in high school that were either temples that were refurbished in Utah, so they were nearby enough that we could go to them.
But I've seen recently on TikTok and Instagram a lot of videos of non-members going to the open houses- Mm ... for, like, the San Diego temple. Um, and I know that they're gonna do an open house for the Salt Lake one soon, right? Yeah. That one's- But- ... gonna be six months long ... when is it? It's from April till October of next year Um, maybe I'll come visit some- during that time 'cause I think it would be interesting, um, 'cause that's a temple I've been in, so.
Yeah. Um, but what were, what were your thoughts... I know that you had gone into the celestial room probably as a kid for your sealing, but what were your thoughts going through the temple during your first open house? Hmm, I actually I don't know if we went to the celestial room when I was a kid because the sealing room is separate than the celestial room.
Oops, my bad. But yeah, the, the sealing room has an altar and- Mm-hmm ... you kneel around the altar and, um... And, like, some temple language is weird, right? Because when I- Yeah ... think of, like, an altar outside of the temple, that sounds like we're gonna sacrifice chickens or whatever. Well, that's, like, in the TikToks.
Right. There's weird symbolism in, in the temple. Like, like, a lot of times the baptismal font is held up by statues of 12 oxen. Mm-hmm. And, um, they, they have taken photos of, like, the altar and been like, "What is this for?" Because it does look creepy. Like, it is like- Yeah ... it is an altar, and it's clear that, like, people kneel around it 'cause there's, like, padding and- Yeah
there's padding on the top of the altar. Yeah. So it is a weird... It's kind of a culty thing. I mean... Yeah. There, there are a lot of interesting things about it, but, but no, so to answer your question before- Mm-hmm ... I didn't, I don't remember going to the celestial room as a kid in the St... And we were- Mm-hmm
sealed in the St. George Temple. But I... Well, what I remember the celestial room at the Las Vegas Temple, 'cause I eventually went through, that's where I received my own endowments. Mm-hmm. It was in the temple in Las Vegas. And the... one of the things I remember about the celestial room in the Las Vegas Temple was that, um, my dad It had this great big, huge chandelier, and my dad was, um, a, an electrical supply salesman, and he got- Mm-hmm
to, um, he got that contract for the temple, so he got to pr- you know- Oh, I didn't know that ... yeah, so he got to provide all of the lights for the, for the temple- ... which was kind of cool, and that, that great big ch- chandelier was, was super cool, so. That is really cool. Yeah. They're very- That's really sweet. I like that.
You know? It's good, yeah ... piece of family lore. I remember when I got to go through for the open houses, the celestial room was really beautiful, but I remember a few things that threw me off, and, like, I was kinda like, "I don't understand this." Like, one of the rooms had a huge Adam and Eve, like, for, earth creation mural- Mm
which stood out to me 'cause, like, a lot of the temples are in, like, this, like, muted palette of, like- There's a lot of white ... it, yeah. There's a lot of- Yeah ... white. They're in this muted palette of, like, tan, gold, um, and suddenly, like, there's this, like, very vibrant mural. And- Mm ... I also remember that one of the temples had, like, this really gorgeous area for brides to get ready in, like- Mm-hmm
because you wear typically something different when you're being sealed than when you're getting married, and, and brides like to change into their actual wedding dress to exit the temple in. Mm. Um, and I remember thinking about, like, "Oh," like, "this would be a really pretty place to get married." So that's, like, my memories of it, and I didn't think anything too weird, but I did know that there was this big secret around the temple that I couldn't know about yet.
Mm-hmm. Um, it's really funny 'cause I was talking to my friend. We both read, uh, romantasy books, and there's one called From Blood and Ash. In it, like, a lot of the lead up is this main character is supposed to go do, like, a secret sacred ceremony- Mm ... and we were talking about the book, and she's like, "I just didn't find that believable."
Like, I think that if, like, there was something looming over you like that, you would ask more questions about it, and I was like, "Oh, no, that was, like, really believable to me because, because I knew- Yeah ... about the endowment. I knew about the sealing, but I didn't know any other details. Um, I think- Mm-hmm
the only detail I really knew was, like, that at one point there were mirrors facing each other that you got to stand in, and you got to see your family, like, go in for eternity. Mm-hmm. And that's about it. Yeah. And famously, when you were gonna go through your endowment, like, get married to Dad, do your sealing to Dad, um, prior to that you passed some chickens on a walk and Dad looked at them-
and said, "Oh, those must be temple chickens." And you did not know enough about the temple to, to be like, "Wait, what?" No, it was, that was just, I did not really take... Because he was joking that they sacrificed chickens in the temple- ... which I just said a minute ago about altars, but that was, that was just always kind of a stupid joke that we made.
But no, there are no animals sacrificed in the temple. There's n- Yeah ... there's no bloodshed on the altars or anything like that. But- And to, to be clear, like, I don't think in our conversation, because you are still a member, and you have agreed to keep these covenants sacred to a degree, and I also never went through some of them, so I can't speak to them.
Mm-hmm. We're not gonna talk about them too in detail, but they're, they're all available online. Like, you can see- Yeah ... transcripts of them, especially over time, like, there's been news stories about them historically. Like, um, there's depictions of them in TV shows, um, from different time periods. Like, I watched a video that Alyssa Grenfell made.
She's, like, a ex-Mormon- Mm-hmm ... YouTuber, and she goes very into detail about, like, the ceremony, what it entails, and, like, the differences over time. Mm-hmm. So those resources are out there. Yeah. We're just gonna kind of allude to them, I think, in this conversation. Well, I think it's interesting because there's really not...
There, there are- ... a couple of very specific things that you actually covenant not to reveal. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? But really, everything else has been talked about- Mm-hmm ... in church sources pretty much. Every- Oh ... most of everything has been talked about, um, by leaders of the church at this point. And I think that part of the reason for that is because it is out there.
Like, people have, you know, surreptitiously recorded it on their phones and- ... put that on the, on the internet, and you know, which is a little disrespectful, and I can understand why some people are, are deeply offended by that. Mm-hmm. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't bother me that much. Like, the thing that bothers me about it is that, um, it's kind of...
Like, when you were talking, or you were thinking about watching it on the internet, I tried to talk you- Mm-hmm ... out of watching it on the internet because it's, it's just out of context, right? It's not... Like, it's taking something that is meaningful to some people and- ... putting it in a situation where it's not meant for, for that audience.
Do you know what I mean? But I feel like I did have context for it. You know? Like, I think that I grew up- Yeah ... with it. I think that, like- Yeah ... as, as far as having a generous view of the church and their beliefs, I think I do. Mm-hmm. I don't know. They talk so much about- Mm ... the temple is full of symbolism.
Well, symbolism means that, that it doesn't have an inherent meaning. Whatever meaning- It has is meaning that we give to it, you know? And I think that that's important to, to remember because, because obviously if you're a practicing, believing member of the church, you're going to give it a lot different meaning than somebody who thinks that it's all just made-up hogwash and, and that kind of thing.
And so, like, like for me, the altar is not a creepy thing- Mm-hmm ... because, like, my husband and I knelt a- across from each other at the altar when we got married. It was just part of- Mm-hmm ... the ceremony. For us, it was part of including God in our relationship and in our, in our- Yeah ... ceremony. And so when I see an altar, that's what I think of.
But I can also see, like I said at the beginning, uh, you know- Mm-hmm ... um, I think I've talked to enough people and under, like, seen a little bit outside of it where, where, you know, sometimes altars have been used for creepy things and sometimes that, that can be, um, that can mean different things to different people.
But it really is just a platform and, like a little table and, you know, it just only has the meaning that we give to it, so. Yeah. Um, I was gonna ask what it was like for you or what, what you felt about the temple when you were in doubt. Like, was there anything that, like, made you feel uncomfortable or surprising to you or did you feel, like, pretty comfortable with all of it?
I mean, it was weird. Like, that's the- Mm-hmm ... biggest thing that I remember was just thinking, "This is not at all what I expected," because there was so much secrecy around it at the time, and I think that that's- Mm-hmm. I, I think it's changed a lo- first of all, the temple ceremonies themselves have changed so much.
Yeah. Like, even since... I haven't watched the one that, that Alyssa Grenfell did, but there have been some significant changes, I think, since that one, too. Um- Well, there used to be, like, explicit consequences for- Yeah ... revealing temple secrets that were pretty violent. Oh. But those ended in 1990, and you went through the temple in, what, like, '93?
'94. '94. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I think, yeah, it's interesting to study, like, the ways that it's changed and the ways that, I mean, frankly improved, I would say. So my experience, it was just that it was, like for me, it was just a weird thing that I didn't kn- really know what to expect. It wasn't, I wouldn't say uncomfortable, just because- Mm-hmm
I knew it was something sacred to so many people that I loved, my grandparents- Mm-hmm ... my parents, you know, l- my, so many people in my community that I loved, and it was something that, that I knew that they had done and, um, had felt like it was an important thing to do. And so, um, there was some discussion of like, "You'll understand more as you keep going," that kind of thing, that it's- Right
it's something that you, you just understand more as you- Mm-hmm ... as you learn and go through the process over the years. But, um, and I think that that's true. I think that, uh, I definitely understand it better and have different thoughts about it now than I did when I was younger. And so, yeah. But also, I feel like there's some element of, like, when you first encounter something that might be a little uncomfortable, like there's a jolt of uncomfortability, and as you do it more and more, it's less uncomfortable.
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Well, it just becomes familiar. Yeah. Um, and what about the sealing? Was there anything in that that, like, surprised you or took you off guard? Um, no. There really wasn't. There really wasn't. I was just so crazy in love and excited to be married, and there was not anything about it that I was just like, um- That made me uncomfortable.
But it sounds like there's something that you were, you were thinking about that you wanted to kind of point to. Well, I've just heard other people, like, talk about their experiences now that they've left, and they talk about it more candidly because they don't feel like they have to keep it sacred.
Mm-hmm. And, like, they talk about how they envisioned on their wedding day, like, wearing, like, this beautiful white dress and, like, looking at their husband and, like... That's not the case in the temple. Like, at that point, you're usually wearing some other items of clothing that are representative of different things that happened during the ceremony.
Um, particularly, like, what the men wear. They're like, "My, my husband looked so goofy." Like, things like- Yeah ... that, that they're like, "This, like, really was, like, not the wedding day I envisioned for myself." Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting 'cause, 'cause there are- ... there are cer- ceremonial clothes that you can also look up and, and see online.
Um, and yeah. And- Mm ... they're kinda weird. And I remembered, um, that was one thing that I did remember from my own sealing- Sh- ... was, you know, just being surprised because part of it is green and, like, just always hearing that you wore white in the temple, and everybody was wearing this green thing, and that was kind of weird.
I don't know. Even now, I, it... Like, they're still odd-looking. Uh- Mm-hmm ... you know? It still is a, a, a kind of a, a weird thing. Um, but it didn't, but it just, it truly didn't bother me at the time. Yeah. And I understand, you know, I can see how it would bother, bother some people. But also, you know, we changed when we went out and w- wore our regular wedding clothes the rest of the day and, and yeah.
Yeah. That makes sense. Um, I did wanna ask about the changes. I do wanna talk about that more because you have been a consistent temple-goer your whole life. Like, there's not really been a period of time where you haven't gone, right? Um, no, not really. I've probably been at least once a year all my life.
At least- And right- ... a couple of times a year probably, almost And right now you're going, like, once a week. Yeah. Right now I work at the temple, so I'm there every Thursday night. Yeah. Um, so there are- there have been a lot of changes. There were a few, like, famous changes that happened in the 1920s and then again, like, in the '80s through the '90s prior to you going to the temple for the first time.
But there's been additional changes that have happened throughout your lifetime. And I just- Yeah ... wanted to know when you found out about, like, the prior changes that had happened, 'cause some of those, like I said, were significant. Like, you used to have to, like, make some violent promises Used to, I mean explicitly.
There, there are some things that you covenant not to reveal. Which, which, I mean, I don't know. It was interesting 'cause I was talking to a friend about this the other night- Mm-hmm ... when I was working at the temple, and she was talking about how those spec- specific things that you covenant not to reveal, how- Mm-hmm
meaningful those are to her. And- Mm-hmm ... and to me, I'm just like, they just, they just never have been particularly meaningful to me. But when my mom went through the temple, and prior to that, um, you did have to covenant under penalty of death, and- Mm-hmm ... you would have to, like, mime slitting your own throat, um, basically, that, that you would, you would be killed and disemboweled if you, um- Yeah
if you revealed those things. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't find that out until a long time later, and I remember thinking that I was glad that, that I never had to participate in that. Yeah. But, but I don't know. You'd have to ask Grandma if sh- like, what she thought about that at the time. I th- Yeah ... I know that she was glad when they stopped doing that.
Yeah. But I don't, you know. Yeah. No, I, that is particularly what, like, they portrayed in Under the Banner of Heaven, that a lot of people- Yeah ... were like, "I can't believe they do this." And it is weird that Mormons used to do that. Like, it is- Yeah ... weird that a lot of these things that you're covenanting, a lot of these things you're covenanting over are things that are basically plagiarized from Freemasonry by Joseph Smith.
But I know that they've kind of tried to space themselves away from that . Yeah. And that it is a different experience now. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting because, you know, because I really have, um, I, like, c- I've been through kind of a whole process with, with coming to terms with the temple, right?
Because I, because there are so many things that, that do seem cultish about it, that do seem weird and, um, and disconnected from, from my experience. And I think that when all of you guys left the church that, um- There was a time that I was just like, "Well, if my kids can't be in the temple, then why would I want to be in the temple?"
Mm-hmm. And, um, so, so a couple of years ago, um, they asked me to give a talk on, on the temple and stake conference. Mm-hmm. And that was an interesting... because everybody except for our youngest at that point had, had left the church, and she was the only one, and she has since left the church, too. But so they asked me to give this talk, and it really made me step back and, and, like, reflect on, okay, what does the temple mean to me and why do I continue to go even though I can understand why people leave the church and why people don't want to participate- Mm-hmm
in the temple? And so, um, so I just went through and figured out, like, okay, why is this meaningful to me? And there's, there's a few different things. So when I first went through the temple, I had a lot of expectations about what that would mean for our- Mm ... family and for our marriage. And, and I would have thought at the time when I went through the temple, if you had asked me to bear my testimony about the temple, I would have said, "Because we're getting married in the temple, then everything will work out."
Right? Mm-hmm. And what I would have meant by that at that time would have been that all of my kids would stay active in the church and go on missions and get married in the temple- Right ... and have grandbabies that would grow up and stay active in the church and go on missions and get married in the temple.
That's what I thought that it meant when I got married in the temple was that the sealing ordinance that would, that was different than anything anybody outside of the church experienced that would continue my family for eternity. Mm-hmm. Right? And that clearly has not been my experience. That's just not been my experience because all of you guys did leave, and that was really difficult- Mm
for me. And so when, when that happened, I went... I had to go through this process of, of, like, okay. The s- first thing that I did was just prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed and, um, and went to the temple harder thinking that if I do everything right, if, uh, if I do everything that I can, that I can bring my kids back to the church.
And when that didn't happen, then I kind of beat myself up so much over everything that I felt like I'd done wrong and- Mm ... and then when I kind of realized, "Okay, I did a pretty good job" Then I started questioning everything about the church, right? Mm-hmm. And like, is this even important? Is this even necessary?
Mm-hmm. Is it... like, what do I believe? Like, do, do I believe my kids are gonna go to hell because they didn't go to the temple, or that we're not gonna be a family together because my kids have left the church? And I don't believe that. Mm-hmm. I don't believe that. And so then the temple, the meaning of the temple just had to change for me because- Mm-hmm
it just wasn't what I thought when I, when I was younger. And so for me now, what the temple is, is it's a place of peace and reflection. There are some things that I find very meaningful about... Like, I love the story of Adam and Eve, which is part of the temple ceremony. Mm-hmm. I love the story, the idea that Eve had the opportunity to choose between, um, between safety and knowledge and experience, and she chose knowledge and experience- Mm-hmm
even though it brought a lot of sorrow and pain into her life. Like, I love that part of that, that story. Um, that's very meaningful to me. So there are things about... And like I said earlier, I think everything in the temple is symbolic, which means that it has the meaning that I give it. Mm-hmm. And so, like, a big part of it is just a place of peace and reflection.
Mm-hmm. A place of feeling connected to, to my ancestors and to my family now. And even, even though you guys aren't there and don't want- Mm-hmm ... to be there, I still believe that we are connected as a family- Mm-hmm ... no matter what happens, you know? What- Mm-hmm exists in this life or beyond, you will always be my children, and I will always be, and I will always love you.
You will always be a big part of, of me. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I feel a lot of connection to my family there. Um, but there are also some things that I really struggle with, right? Like I really- Mm ... struggle with the fact that you can't be there, right? Mm-hmm. Partly 'cause you just don't want to be, but partly because there's, there's these worthiness questions and these, these standards.
And if I had my way, the only temple recommend question that there would be would be, "Do you want to go to the temple? Do you want to be a part of this ceremony?" Mm-hmm. That would be the only thing that would keep people out of it, because I'm really allergic to the word worthy. I have some real problems with that.
Mm-hmm. You know? Because worthy does not necessarily mean good. It- Mm-hmm ... it's not, the worthiness questions are not, are you a good person? They're, are you living these specific standards? And so there's some things that I really struggle with about. And, um, I don't know. So I think that's kind of changed.
One of the things I wanted, um, one of my recent temple experiences was when one of my nephews was getting married in the temple. And, um, you know, and we were all, like, greeting each other outside of the temple and seeing family that had come from, from different places and all that kind of stuff. And then, um, it was time for the wedding, and so we were going into the temple, and some people, of course, couldn't go into the temple.
And, and I had a moment where I just really felt like, like, I, I would even say at this point that it was the Spirit talking to me, that I should, should be outside with the people who are outside, that I should wait with them and not go in. And, and I didn't. I went into the temple and, um, and I really regret that.
I wish that I had stayed outside with, with this group of people that I loved and let the, this, the other group of people that I loved go in and do their thing. Mm-hmm. And, and I think that, you know, I might do that, I will probably do that differently the next time. Um- 'Cause I, 'cause I do, I regret that. I feel, feel like that was, um, for me in that moment, I feel like that was the wrong thing to do.
Yeah. Yeah, I think for me that's the hardest part is I don't necessarily, you know, we've gone to the temple particularly for weddings 'cause I do like to be there. I like to be there in case someone needs a babysitter. I like to walk around outside with the people that can't go in, and I, I do like to say, "This is something that you're choosing to do that is important and significant to you, so I will be outside cheering when you exit the building," you know?
Mm-hmm. Like, I do like to be a part of that where I can be, but like there's some family stories that have happened inside the temple that obviously I couldn't be a part of, and I just don't like the separation part. Yeah. Like, I don't necessarily want to be in there participating in the ceremonies. I'm fine being outside.
But for you, I even feel bad about the choice to either be outside and spend more time with this part of your family or be inside and spend time with the other part of your family. Yeah. It's, it's that separation part that's hard because it is so fun when we're all together and when we get to spend time together.
Yeah. And I think even having to separate for that part is really sad. Yeah. It really does break my heart, and I just don't believe that that is how heaven will be at all. I don't. Yeah. And so, so that, that's a really difficult thing for me about the temple. Um- Mm-hmm ... you know, we've talked a little bit about tithing before.
I have a real struggle with the fact that tithing is a requirement for the temple. Mm-hmm. And so, so I go and I love it- Mm-hmm ... in a lot of ways, and I also struggle with it in some ways. Yeah. And, um, there are things that are deeply, deeply meaningful to me about it, and there are other things that I am just confused about and that don't have as much meaning to me.
Mm-hmm. Um, it's just, yeah, it's been a, an interesting journey for me. Yeah. But at this point you guys have not asked me to not be part of the temple. I think, I think if you ever did that that would be a struggle for me, that, that I would have some hard decisions there, and I appreciate that you haven't made that a condition of- Yeah
of our relationship- ... or anything like that. And I think, I mean, I think I can see why some people would, but, um, I don't know. I don't think it's a condition for our relationship, but I do think that there are times where I would want you to prioritize me over going to the temple. Like, it did kind of hurt me when we were moving me into Orlando and you went to the Orlando temple.
So I was just sitting in my empty apartment trying to figure out, like- moving in, but you had all of my stuff in your car, and you were in the temple, so I couldn't reach you. Mm. And we did a lot of stuff that weekend that was really special, and I think to a degree I'm like, "This is my mom's religion.
This is her ritual. This is important to her, so I don't wanna get in the way of that." But I do, like, wish in those situations you had just stayed with me. Yeah. And that's interesting 'cause that is something that I would do differently now. I am- Yeah ... I'm sorry for that. No, it's okay. I mean- Like, I'm not angry about it at you.
Yeah. And I do think I know that you would do differently now. Yeah. I don't... Like, there are very few times I think that I would prioritize going to the temple over, over being with one of my children at this point. Mm. I d- there just wouldn't... Like, I... Well, the one that I, and I really struggled with that, was at Josie's wedding last year, and- Oh
it happened to fall on the same weekend as the Elko Temple dedication. Uh-huh. And they'd asked me to sing in the choir, which was a really cool opportunity. Mm-hmm. And when I said yes, um, I didn't realize that the dedication was going to fall on the weekend of her wedding. And that was really hard for me because I wanted to be home with you guys.
I wanted to be- Yeah ... there and, and enjoying being with you, and, and I kind of had to be. And on the flip side, even as a non-member, if they allowed us to go observe, even if we weren't participating, that's something I would have loved to be there to support you in. Yeah. Like, to watch you sing at, at the temple ceremony.
Yeah. So that separation's a little hard, but I, I don't think that I would ever ask you to not participate in something that means a lot to you, you know? Yeah. Well, we gotta wrap this up 'cause I gotta run. But- But thank you for having this conversation with me. Thank you. And I think, like you said, there's lots more that we could say about it, and there's- Yeah.
And maybe we'll do more at another time because I don't think we've ever had a real discussion about the temple before. Mm-mm. Yeah. So it was good. I enjoyed it. Thank you. I love you. Love you lots. Talk to you soon. Okay. Bye bye. Bye.