Hi, I'm Kari. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee & Coco, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. And today we have a very special guest. The one and only Josie, um, my little sister- Aw
that I'm so proud of. Aw. Um, Josie is joining us today to talk a little bit about her journey, 'cause we always talk about how we reconstructed our family, so it's fun to add in a new family member, um, to kinda tell the story from their perspective. Um, Josie's wonderful. She lives in the same town as my mom.
She's 25 years old, and she is married and has how many dogs? Three. And one cat? Joseph has a cat. Okay. She does not claim the ca- cat. I don't know him like that.
How are you doing? Good. Good. Are you excited to be on the podcast? Uh, yeah, I'm l- it's, it's, like, a different format than I've ever, like, told this story before, so it's, it was interesting to try to organize my thoughts, so. Which- Yeah ... is fun, 'cause I'm not an organized person, as you both well know. It's also, like, crazy the first time I told my story to try and, like, podcast it.
I was like, "Wow, I've never, like, really put everything together." Like, everything's individual stories, and you're trying to shape it into, like, make sense of this is my life. It's kind of intimidating. Yeah. I think, I think I have, like, told the story beginning to end before, 'cause, I mean, obviously I've been through therapy a few times, but, like, I don't think I've ever tried to, like, explain how we got here, right?
And, like, the factors that, like, shaped the situations that I was in, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to discuss this, because you've told Mom the story a lot, but you haven't... I don't really know the story. I kind of interacted with you, like, I thought you were very faithful in the church- ... and so I didn't tell you a lot of things when I was in high school because I was worried that you would tell Mom.
I thought the same thing. And then, yeah, like, I didn't wanna get in trouble, and also, like, I didn't wanna be a bad influence. Like, sometimes I would feel really guilty if, like, I was doing something wrong with a boy or stuff like that. I'd be like, "Ugh, what will my younger siblings think?" Um, so I'm excited to hear the journey, especially because as you approached 18, I was kind of speculating on my side of if you were gonna stay in the church or not or, or what your relationship was.
Um, so I can't wait to hear. Oh, we're getting ahead of ourselves. We have to start with testimonies. Oh. Josie, do you have a testimony you wanna share? I do. Um, my testimony is on claymation, actually. So I was watching Coraline last night, which- Mm ... um, I love Coraline. I love Laika. And my husband and I were talking about, um, like, how claymation is really a labor of love, and, like, I feel like a lot of modern art is, kind of falls into the pit of, like, being made for profit.
And so it's really cool to see something that's, like, really, like, you can see the passion in it, so. Oh. I love that. That's really interesting. Yeah. I think your brother for a little while kind of got into trying to do some claymation. But it is labor-intensive- It's- ... for sure. It is. It's like there's this one sequence in Coraline where, like, there are these, they're like ribbons, and then they spin around and, like, turn into mice, and they float around.
And I watched- Mm ... the behind-the-scenes, and that one sequence, like, it's maybe a 15-second sequence, and it took them three months to film. Holy cow. Wow. Wow. It is- Crazy ... it's an art. How about you, Kimberly? My testimony this week is on the Ren Faire. I went with, like, three of my work friends to the Ren Faire yesterday, um, which- Mm-hmm
wasn't smart because I am kinda sick, and I probably should've taken it easy, but I already bought the ticket. Um, but- Mm ... it was fabulous. We had such a good time. We were walking around, and one of my f- coworker friends was like, "I feel like your siblings would like this." And I was like, "Ugh, my siblings eat up a Ren Faire."
I was like, "You mean my sister that had a Lord of the Rings themed wedding?" I was like, "Yeah, she likes a Ren Faire, for sure." I was like- I didn't get to go this year. It was so sad. It was a long day, but it was really fun. That's fun. Yeah. What's your testimony, Mom? My testimony is, um, gonna be on Marco Polo.
Have you ever used Marco Polo? We've used Marco Polo- Uh ... a little bit. But- Yeah ... my, my sister and I, um, your aunt, we, we do Marco Polo back and forth, and it's... Like, I really love it be- because it's really hard to take the time to sit and, and talk for an hour on the phone anymore. But, like, I can just give her a short update as I'm driving to work.
I probably shouldn't do it while I'm driving, but I'm driving an Elko. But I can just give her a short update, and then she can give me a short update, and we can just listen to it when, when it's convenient. And, like, I just... Like, all of these little technologies that people have come up with, um, in the past 30 years or whatever, that just make our lives so much easier, there are things, you know, there's always downsides to all of them, I think.
But, um, but that one's a fun one. I, I highly recommend Marco Polo. So yeah. So where do we wanna start, Josie? Um, so I actually just wanted to start with a quick trigger warning, um, just for people who are listening. Um, first of all, this story kind of does get heavy at points, and so, like, please just make sure that you have the, the, the mental bandwidth to, like, accept that and, like, take care of yourself.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and also I am going to be talking a little bit about, um, things like self-harm and suicidal ideation, and also sexual assault. So, um, if any of that is triggering for you, just, like, be aware of that. Mm. Yeah. 'Cause, 'cause they are unfortunately, um, part of this story. Yeah. Unfortunately.
Yeah. So I guess I'll just dive right into it. So I grew up with autism and ADHD, and, um, I didn't get diagnosed with those until I was 23, I think, 22 or 23. And, um, it's, it's interesting because w- uh, what that looked like for me as a kid is that I was very, very good at doing what I was told. It's kind of funny actually, when I told mom that I had been diagnosed with autism, the, the first thing she said was, "That, that doesn't really make sense.
Like, I didn't really see that from you." And then she went and did some reading on it, and she came back and she told me, "Okay, so autism in girls actually just looks like being the perfect child." It's true. And that is what I remember. Yeah. Yeah, I remember Josie being, like, the perfect, like, pacifist child, the person that, like, everyone wanted to babysit their kids.
Like, she was, she was really a good Mormon girl. And, um, the other thing that came with that is that I was very, very good at regurgitating things that I had been told, right? Um, I was super good at memorization, which is a lot of what, uh, being a kid in the church entails, right? You have your, your articles of faith.
Mom and I memorized the family, a proclamation to the world, and, like, that was super impressive to everybody I told it to. And, um- And so I remember feeling like I was so smart and so special and so blessed. And I think Kimberly kind of touched on this in her story, but there's that, like, almost narcissism that comes with, like, being God's chosen, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I'm right and I'm on the right path, and, you know, this is what God wants for me, and I need to tell everyone how good I am at, like, being God's chosen, right? I don't really remember a ton about my baptism and confirmation, but I do remember, like, not just, really just not questioning it, right?
Like, that was just what we did, right? And I didn't really need to think about it because this was just the path that was set before me. We did take some really beautiful pictures, I'm just gonna say. And that was what it was. Yeah, your baptism pictures are really cute. I was always just the perfect little passive Barbie doll, right?
So one thing about Josie is that she has really great, gorgeous hair. Like, she has the best hair of anybody in our family. Yeah. And, you know, not that you don't have gorgeous hair, Kimberly, but, you know. No, Josie's hair- Like, she just has- ... is so fun to play with. It is so fun to play with, and so when she was a little girl too, this is why she's calling herself a Barbie, because she was absolutely my, my Barbie doll.
Like, she would sit for hours and just let me braid it and curl it and do it in all kinds of different ways, so Well, and neither of my sisters would sit still, so This is true. Kimberly was too busy and- I sat still. You did for, for a while, for a long time. But our youngest never would. I was a model child.
She was not. She, she didn't like her hair brushed, but Josie would just sit there and we would, like she said, we sat there and memorized the Proclamation to the Family. But we would have long conversations while I was doing your hair and- Mm-hmm ... and that was always really fun. We have lots- It was great
of pictures of cute hairdos. CuteGirl'sHairstyle.com. Yes. Yes, that was a big deal at the time too, so. Um- That's funny. So yeah, so that was just most of my childhood is just, like, being very, um, assured of what I was and, like, the path that was set before me, knowing what I knew and, um, just never really questioning it, never really having any reason to.
And then around middle school, I really started to struggle with imposter syndrome. I don't think that I felt like as assured of who I was anymore, um, which makes sense, right? Because that's, you know, my formative years and, and trying to figure out who I am. And that's kind of when they start encouraging you to think about your own future and, like, what you want, and I had only ever done what I was told, and everything was just so clear to me.
It was laid out for me of, like, you know, what I was gonna do, who I was gonna be. And because I didn't feel so assured anymore, like I said, I started to struggle with imposter syndrome because everyone around me, you know, all of my trusted adults are members of the church, and they always tell you, like, you know, "Your light shines so brightly," and, "You're such a beautiful daughter of God," and, "I can just tell by looking at you that y- that your testimony is so strong."
And- I remember feeling like my worth was connected to my standing in the church. I don't think I ever really developed that intrinsic value of just, like, I'm worth something because I'm a person. So when my testimony started to falter a little bit and I wasn't, like, so assured, it just... It was very difficult for me because I felt like people were seeing a version of me that wasn't true and were loving this version of me that w- that just wasn't who I was, and I just felt like a fraud, and I felt like, you know, the rules were so hard.
I didn't wanna read the scriptures. I didn't wanna pray when I was tired. I listened to secular music, and it held a lot of meaning and, and comfort for me. The other thing that I remember is, like, people couldn't tell by looking at me that I was Mormon anymore, which they always tell you is a big deal, right?
You have, like, the Mormon glow and, like, people know by looking at you- ... that, that you're Mormon, and my friends didn't, and I had to tell them that. And it's a lot of pressure. I'm sure Kim got a lot of this. I don't know, Mom, if you did. But growing up around the time that I did- Mm-hmm ... they put a lot of pressure on you to basically to save the world, right?
Mm-hmm. They tell you that God saved your soul for this specific point in history. Like, we're, we're speeding towards the end. We're speeding towards the second coming of Christ, and so we have to save everyone. We have to do the family history and build the temples and, and save everyone so that when Christ comes again, we're ready.
Mm-hmm. And I didn't feel like I could do that. It was really hard for me to talk to people in general, and it was really hard for me to talk to people about the church. Well, this, uh, this is so interesting to me too because, like, some of the things you're saying... Well, like with, with secular music, I don't think that those are things that you got in our home.
Do you- No, I, I think they were definitely- 'Cause we- ... a culture thing. Like, from the wider church, from things that you learned at church? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's so interesting, yeah, because just when you said that, like, we always listened to- The Eagles. Yeah, the Eagles. That's where our Venn diagram connects- Yeah
of what everybody in the family likes. Classic rock. But that wasn't a problem in, in our house, and that's interesting that you picked it up from church that, that it was a problem because- Yeah. Well, and I think it was, like, songs that swore 'cause, like, I was getting into, like, Panic at the Disco and My Chemical Romance- Yeah.
Right ... and things like that. And, um, Kim, do you remember, like, the little card that had the cupcake with the cockroach in it? Right. Yes. And it was like, "It's so great except for the bad parts" and, like, "Would you eat a brownie with a little bit of dog poop in it?" With dog... Yeah. It's so good except the bad part.
Well, I was thinking that too, like part of the reason that you were not, like projecting as m- as a Mormon, like when you were saying that, like people didn't recognize you immediately as a member of the church, is there's this like specific Mormon image, and you were becoming an alt baddie. You were into emo music, and you were like fighting over wanting to wear more eyeliner, and loved your combat boots.
I did love my combat boots. I still love my combat boots. And- I'm not even gonna lie. And I did fight you over the eyeliner. Sorry. You did. You did. You fought me over the eyeliner. Okay. So yeah, so I was like becoming more alternative, and like that didn't fit the, the clean girl Mormon aesthetic, right? And again, just because like I had grown up only ever doing what I was told, and so like- Mm-hmm
learning to be myself was very difficult for me, especially because like so much of my value was tied to being this perfect member of the church, and I thought that, you know, I would be worth less if I wasn't this perfect Mormon kid. Mm. So the rules were really hard for me. I didn't like reading the Bible.
It just didn't interest me. I didn't, I didn't ever know what to pray about, right? It just like, it didn't come as easily to me as it seemed like it did to other people. And I was constantly comparing myself to others 'cause I wasn't as faithful as Kimberly was. I wasn't as diligent and disciplined as my brother was.
I wasn't as insightful as the girl up the street. Well, no one was as diligent as our brother was. Yeah. Oh, interesting ... very, very disciplined. Okay. Um- So the pressure you were feeling, it sounds like that you were feeling like you were a bad kid because you weren't reading your scriptures and saying your prayers as well as you thought that you should have been?
Like, that's why you thought you were such a bad kid? I, I also just felt like a fraud- Oh ... because people would, I mean, like my church leaders would say to me, like, "You know, you're such a good reader. You must be so good at reading your scriptures," and, you know, "You always have such- Mm-hmm ... great insights in class.
You just, you've got it. Like, you're on lock." And I'm like- Mm-hmm ... I just, I didn't feel it. So interesting. What age were you, I guess, was it around middle school when our oldest sibling- I was in seventh grade ... like, left. Okay. Mm-hmm. And do you remember, like, did that affect you at all? That was earth-shattering.
It was earth-shattering. Is that kind of like when you started questioning the church or why you started questioning the church? I think maybe a little bit, but I don't know because, like, and I don't, I don't think I ever told her this, and maybe she shouldn't hear this on the podcast, but I definitely read her journal after she left, which was a huge invasion of privacy, but, like, I didn't see it as any different from, like, reading Grandma's journals that she had left behind.
But she had written about how she had such a strong testimony. And so the thing about our oldest sibling leaving was I did not understand what had happened. I had no details. I had no clue what was going on. Mm-hmm. I just knew, 'cause because I was homeschooled that year, and so I would go to choir and band in the morning, and then I would come home, and I would do, do school online.
And so this particular day, Mom picks me up from school, and we pull up in the driveway, and the first thing I hear is Dad's voice from inside the house, and he is yelling, and Dad does not yell. Mm-hmm. It's just not... I've, I mean, I can probably count on one hand the number of times in my entire life that I have heard him yell.
And so I'm immediately terrified because Dad is yelling and something is wrong. And so Mom tells me to wait in the car, and she goes inside, and I'm, like, messing around on my iPod Touch or whatever I had at the time. And I have no idea how much time passes, but Mom eventually comes out just with tears streaming down her face, and she turn...
She doesn't even look at me. She says, "You should probably go say goodbye." And I walked in, and they were packing. And I don't remember for sure, but I think that they were gone by the time that anyone else got home. So, like- Yeah ... just in my mind, the way that I remember it was like I was the only one who got to say goodbye.
Yeah And that was just so confusing for me. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know why they were leaving. I didn't know what had happened. Yeah. And on top of that, it was so upsetting to mom at the time- Yeah ... that around this time she kind of shut down. Yeah. And the other thing that happened is that I don't think dad really knew how to handle it, and so his solution was just, "We don't talk about it.
We d- we don't bring them up. We don't say their name. We don't talk about anything surrounding them leaving." And so I wasn't allowed to talk about them. I didn't know where they were, and that was a big deal for me because they were my rock as a kid. They were my safe space. Mm-hmm. And then they were just gone, and I didn't know why.
And that brought a lot of questions from people who knew us. Okay. And nobody had ever questioned us before, right? Because we were the bishop's family, and why would anyone... Yeah. So I did struggle with that, but like I said, totally invaded their privacy, totally read that journal. Um, and I thought, "You know, they know that this is true, and they'll come back someday, right?"
Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's so interesting to hear your side of it, because my side was coming home and they were gone. Um, but my experience wasn't that nobody talked about them. Like, I feel like I knew a lot of what had happened, just not all of it, and I kind of saw it more as, like, Dad protecting their privacy and being like, "We're not gonna tell you everything that they're struggling with," which I know is something that, like, he really valued, especially, like, as bishop.
Like, he was very about keeping things- Mm ... confidential when somebody was struggling with something. Yeah. I, I guess I didn't see it that way, 'cause I very much just saw it as, like, he was trying to protect Mom,
And so the only thing that he could do is just, like, do not talk about it- Mm ... because it upsets Mom. Yeah. He's protective of me. That's an understatement. Ugh. Which, like, I appreciate it in so many ways, but it's, it's hard that he felt like he had to protect me from, from feelings and from you guys, and I think, you know, just the family system at this time was very unhealthy.
It, it really was. Yeah. And it really did... I don't know, Josie, what your experience was, but it really did feel like us versus you guys. Like, it didn't feel like one family struggling through something together. It felt like the kids versus the adults. I just remember feeling very isolated. Like, the moment that sticks out to me is that at some point I talked to somebody at school, I forget if it was a counselor or just a friend, but when I was in eighth grade, I talked to somebody at school about my sibling and about how they had left and about how I was struggling with that.
And I came home and, um- One thing about me is I am a really, really bad liar. I always have been. Um, everything I think shows up on my face 100% of the time. Yeah. Same. Me too. So Mom and Dad found out that I had talked to somebody about it, and I was just told, "We don't need to talk about it. We don't need to air our family drama to anyone else.
Nobody needs to know. Like, you do not need to talk about what's going on." Um- Hmm. So, like, I couldn't talk about it at home. I couldn't talk about it at school. I was just not supposed to bring it up, ever. And like I said, I was so confused. I had no idea where they were. I had no idea why they had left, and I wasn't supposed to ask.
I wasn't supposed to talk about it. So I think maybe that kind of started, like, I didn't really talk about anything, right? 'Cause I couldn't talk about the things that were bothering me, and so I just kind of shut down. So at this point, I do remember starting to feel... So I was not actively suicidal, right?
Like, I was not actively making plans to end my own life. Mm-hmm. But there was this permeating feeling that I remember having that I wasn't gonna make it to adulthood, that something was going to happen and I was going to die. And I don't really know where that came from, but it, like, kind of permeated my middle school and high school years just that I wasn't gonna make it.
And something about growing up suicidal, like, talking to other people that have grown up suicidal, is, um, when you don't think that you're gonna make it to tomorrow- You don't really care what tomorrow looks like. Mm-hmm. Um, so I remember just kind of moving through life and just kind of going through the motions.
I also remember, like, just thinking at this point, it's interesting because again, I don't think that this was ever something that I was actively taught because I know it's not doctrinal. But I remember just thinking that the atonement of Christ was transactional, that you were saved after everything that you could do.
Mm-hmm. If you did everything that you could, if you tried your hardest every single day of your whole life, then you would be saved. So there was just this permeating cloud of doom that hung over me because I didn't think that I was gonna make it to adulthood. I thought that something was going to happen to me, and I knew that I wasn't doing everything that I could do, so that, that was gonna be it, right?
Like, I was gonna die and, and God would give up on me, and I would just be sentenced to torture forever because, because I wasn't good enough. Mm. This is, like, as your mom during this time, I, I wasn't worried about you. There weren't any red flags that were saying, "This child is suicidal." There weren't any red flags that were saying, "She needs extra attention.
She m- maybe needs therapy for this, for these things that she's going through." You weren't acting out. You weren't rebelling against me. You weren't, like, crying all of the, all of the time. You... There wasn't anything from the outside that was indicating that you were going through this much turmoil inside.
Right, like, I just went quiet. I also feel like from, like, my perspective, right, like, you were such a good sister t- to, like, your younger siblings and, like, you seemed to be having a lot of joy and, like, having a lot of connection in your life. You got good grades, and you were, you were involved in things at school, and, like, everything on the surface seemed to be fine, and yet, you know, now we know that you were going through so many difficult things under the surface.
Yeah. I'm so sorry that you went through that. Yeah. Yeah. And alone. I'm so sorry that you went through it alone and without being able to, to talk to us about it. It really, it's hard to hear. So this was when I started to have friends that mom didn't really like, right? Yeah. There was one in particular, and I know she knows who I'm talking about.
And the reason for this was that, um, by the time I was... It w- it was probably earlier, if I'm being honest, but by the time I was transitioning from middle school into high school, being a people pleaser was a pretty well-cemented part of my character. Mm-hmm. And something that I've noticed in my adulthood is that when you are a people pleaser, you tend to attract people that like to take advantage of others, because- Mm
people pleasers are extremely easy to take advantage of. Well, and that was exactly why I had such a hard time with, with that particular friend, was because- Because I bent over backwards for her and did everything- Yeah ... that she ever asked of me. Exactly. Yeah. I remember you telling Josie, "You don't have to do what she says."
Yeah. And I did actually have multiple people in my life that were like this, um, some of whom, like, I didn't put together until much, much later. I mean, there was one friend that I had for a very, very long time that I actually didn't really put together until, like, two years ago was acting this way. So yeah, that was just a pretty cemented part of my personality.
And Kim and I have discussed before, I almost feel like the church, like, breeds into little girls to be people pleasers. Keep sweet and obey. Yeah. Right. But also, like, the phrase that I keep coming back to that, like, swirls around in my mind a lot is, "Lose yourself in the surface of God." Mm-hmm. Right? And when I started to, like, really examine that, that bothered me a lot.
Because to me, I feel like it's dangerous to tell a child to lose themselves in the surface of God when they don't have a self to lose yet, right? Totally. Like, they have no idea who they are. So if you don't have that sense of self, like, you can't really safely lose yourself in the surface of God, right?
And I also feel like there's a lot of shame and, like, guilt that comes with putting yourself first- Mm ... when you're in church, and, like, taking care of yourself. Mm-hmm. Because you're always supposed to be taking care of others, right? And they talk about, you know, the woman who, who gave up her last coins for, for tithing because she knew the G- that God would take care of her.
And, like, there's a story in the Bible about, like, uh, the oil and meal thing where, right, like- That she fed the prophet before, yeah. Right. This is the thing, is that from my perspective now, there's this balance between making sure that you take care of yourself and making sure that you take care of others.
And i- if you get too far to either side of that, it's bad, right? Like, it's- Right ... it's not healthy. And in the church, we definitely err on the side of teaching people to take care of others first. Right. And- Because, like, a lot of the rhetoric in the church is, like, being careful to walk the line between selfishness and selflessness, right?
Yeah. And so that's, that's a lot of what they focus on is like, "Don't be selfish, don't be selfish, don't be selfish," because that's, like, human nature to be selfish, right? Mm-hmm. And that was not the problem that I was having. I was actually walking the line between selflessness and self-sacrifice. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. You internalized that in a way that was like, if you ever do anything to take care of yourself, that is selfish. And I think it's interesting to look at because a lot of women do internalize it in that way, particularly women, and it creates huge problems, right? Okay, so because, um, being a people pleaser was so cemented into my personality, I was a very easy person to take advantage of at this time in my life.
And that is when I met this guy. Evil music. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. So this guy crashed into my life like a hurricane, and he very quickly became my first serious relationship because this is when I was 16, right? Because now I'm finally allowed to date somebody. Wah! And, um, the steady dating rule was not really enforced, for me at least, just the idea of like, you know, you can't have a boyfriend.
Like, you can go on dates, but you can't have a boyfriend. And I remember coming home from a choir trip and this guy had brought me flowers and candy and posted something on his social media, like a picture of me with the caption like, "My girl is home," or something like that Oof. Yeah. And I remember, like, coming home and trying to hide those flowers from Mom, and I got up the stairs, right?
And then I remember having this internal debate and, like, very slowly walking back down the stairs with the flowers in hand so that Mom could confront me. And at this point she told me, like, "It's okay if you have a boyfriend." Is it okay if I interrupt- Go for it ... to clarify for a second? It, it's interesting because with Kimberly, I was just like, "You're not allowed to have a boyfriend," right?
Mm-hmm. That was, like, so drilled in, and so it sounds contradictory and whatever, but you really hadn't expressed interest in, in boys. Like, I don't remember you really having crushes on boys. Like, you just... It was never an issue for you. And so it was just like, it's a normal and natural thing for her to like a boy, and that's okay.
And so that's what I was, what I was trying to say. If I had known who the boyfriend was at the ti- or known more about the boy in question at the time. If you could gaze into the future. Sorry. Yeah. Musical interlude. And it's frustrating to me that, that I actually kind of put a stamp of approval on, like, you having a boyfriend at the time, and it turned out to be such a difficult experience.
But also, when he posted, "My girl is back"- Ugh ... that- You got so mad. I was so- I do remember that ... mad, and your dad was so mad. Like, I'm sorry, you do not own this, this person. Like, I was so mad. Yeah. And that's, and I guess that that's not true, because you had had some, some boys that y- you liked and that liked you before.
Well, that, that's the thing, is Josie had a lot of boys, especially growing up, that had a lot of interest in Josie, and Josie did not have a lot of interest in boys. Yeah, that's true. So I can see... And also at this time, to, like, put it in perspective of my story, is this is happening when I was off to college and we were having arguments about how you had raised me.
So it's almost like a correction of, like, we went too harsh on Kimberly. Yeah. And it's normal and natural for teenagers to want to have boyfriends and girlfriends. Yeah. So not that I want to discuss him further, but- I know ... it's important. So- Sorry for the faces we're about to pull for the rest of the story.
It is. Mm. So, so the reason that this particular gentleman is important to this story is because when I was 16, um, something happened between the two of us that I did not want. And I'm not gonna get too far into it, but it is important for me to clarify that I was not physically forced. I was kind of talked into it after having said no.
Which disclaimer, coercion is rape. It just is. Yeah. But I didn't have the words for that when I was 16. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so because I am a terrible, terrible liar, Mom and Dad found out that something... Actually, b- f- before I go there, I, I do wanna say, like, I remember driving home after this happened, I remember very distinctly, and I knew that I had done something wrong.
I knew that it felt wrong. And I remember hearing voices in my head of every church leader I had had, of my mom and my dad and my bishop and my young women's leaders, and all of them telling me everything that I had done wrong and all of the reasons why it was my fault. Telling myself that I let myself be put into that situation, and he had said all of the buzzwords that I had been warned about.
Like, he had said all of these things that they said, "Never listen when they say that." And- Mm. Which we had said to protect you, which we had tried to- Right Warn you and protect you from the situation, but when the situation happened, we hadn't done anything about beyond that. Yeah. Because I was not prepared for somebody to be so gosh darn pushy.
Yeah. So Mom and Dad find out that something has happened. They don't know what has happened, but they know kind of the vein that it's in. And when something in this vein happens, and you are a Mormon, you are supposed to confess to your bishop. It's not like Catholic confession where you're supposed to confess all of your sins.
It's just for, like, the big ones, right? Like if you kill someone. Or just as bad, have sex as a teenager. You have sex as a teenager! Oh my God. So I had to go meet with my bishop, and this was back in the day before you were allowed to have a woman with you. So how this happened is that I, at 16 years old, was locked behind a door with a man who was, like, my dad's age.
And for the record, Dad was not your bishop at this time. Dad was not my bishop at this time, no. No. So I was locked behind this door with the bishop, and I told him what happened, and again, I, I did not have the words to explain to him properly what happened. And what that meant for me was that he misunderstood, and he treated this as though it was a decision that I had made and not something that had been done to me against my will.
So he treated it as though I had, you know, willingly broken this rule. Mm-hmm. And the one thing that sticks in my head that he said to me that day was, I'm sitting in his office bawling because I'm recounting something traumatic that has happened to me, and he looks at me and he says, "Josie, I know why you're crying, and it's because you are feeling godly sorrow because your soul is crying out to you in pain for sinning against your God."
Oh. Um. Hmm. I am so sorry. So the way that he handled this is that he gave me some things to read all about why what I had done was wrong and the damage that I had done to my soul, and then he told me that I was not worthy of taking the sacrament. Uh, which is always interesting to me. And I think mom and I have talked about this before because in the Mormon church when you like commit a sin and you're going through the process of repentance, theoretically when you are most in need of the atonement of Christ- Mm-hmm
they tell you that you are no longer worthy of the sacrament. So weird. So I was not worthy of the sacrament, but he didn't release me as ward chorister. So it was my job to stand up and lead the hymns every Sunday, which meant that I got to sit up on the pulpit behind my bishop every single Sunday for weeks and turn away the sacrament in front of everyone that I had been going to church with since I was two.
Every single one of my trusted adults was in that room, everybody I had ever known, all of my friends. I mean, not all of my friends, but a good portion of my friends, people that I had known forever, people that I almost considered family I got to sit up there and refuse the sacrament, and there were some people that I'm sure, with nothing but love and concern in their hearts, came up to me and asked me why, and I felt so ashamed and so dirty and so broken.
I felt like I had done something irrevocable to my soul, to my eternal soul. And of course, I was already blaming myself, and it had just been confirmed that this was my fault. And so this was the point when I kind of gave up. I had already felt for so long at this point that I was doomed, that I wasn't strong enough to follow the word of God, that I wasn't good enough to follow all the laws that were given to me.
And so I just gave up, and I think I said earlier, I had viewed Christ's atonement as transactional, and this was the moment when I decided I couldn't keep up my end of the bargain, and so I was beyond help. And so I kind of retreated into this relationship with this guy. Which makes perfect sense because he was the only one who was telling you that you were worth anything at this point.
He was also, like, reinforcing that, reinforcing kind of that my parents didn't care about me, that my friends- Yeah ... didn't care about me. He was trying to isolate me, and it was working. He was making sure that he was all that I had, and so I kind of just let him do whatever he wanted to me for a really long time.
And it was around this time that I started having really, really bad panic attacks, um, because I felt like my life was spiraling out of control. I didn't feel like I had control over anything. Then this guy proposed, and I said yes because I felt like that was the path that was laid before me, like, that was the next step.
This is what we're gonna do. It's not really up to me. This is just how this is gonna happen. And just to clarify the timeline here, you, you know, all of this stuff with the bishop happened at 16. That's when you started dating the m- the worst man in the world. Um, and- ... then you dated all through high school, you know.
Yes. You know, you spent a lot of time with him, and by the time he proposed, that was your first year in college, which was also during COVID. Is that right? Um, it wasn't. It was before. Um- It was before COVID ... so he proposed when I was 19. 'Cause you took a year off between high school and- I did. I took a gap year.
Right. Right. Um, and I was doing the BYU Pathways program because Mom told me to. And, and I'm sure that she had the best intentions. I know that she did. Mm-hmm. But it just continued to heap on this guilt and this shame and not feeling good enough and not feeling like I was doing what I needed to do to be saved.
And also, I feel like at this time, right, because you had graduated, you had stopped doing, like, your curriculars that you were really good at in school. You weren't going to college. You weren't around a lot of people your age other than him. And also, like, you weren't doing a lot. Like, you weren't in a job you loved or, like, go- Right
working towards a career that you wanted or, like, working towards something else that you really wanted. Like, what you were doing at that time was being his girlfriend. Right. And married. Well, and this kind of goes back to what I said earlier is, like, you don't really plan for the future if you don't think you're gonna make it.
Right. Well, and the thing too, we were trying so hard to get you to quit dating this guy, but- Mm-hmm ... you were so emotionally involved with him at this point. Like, like I said, it made sense because he was the one that was telling you that you were beautiful and w- worthy, and that he wanted you and that you were wonderful, but we were trying...
And we were trying so hard, so, like, for the first time in our lives, in my life with you as your mother, we were at odds with each other. We were fighting bad about this- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... this guy, and it just pushed you- Oh, yeah ... more and more towards him. And I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out what I could do, and there just wasn't any way.
I think it's also important to note that, like, he knew how to press every single one of my buttons, right? He knew that I had this innate need to take care of others, and so he told me that he would hurt himself if I left him. Mm-hmm. He knew that I had this need for validation, and so he made sure that he was the only one giving it to me.
If I ever felt good about myself without his help, he would tear me down so that he was the only one making me feel good about myself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, th- it just was an abusive relationship on so many levels. Yeah. And I do remember, like, prior to the engagement, I do remember you being like, "I don't know what to do anymore to, to get her to stop seeing him."
And I remember at one point you, like, said, "You're not dating anymore, and you can't see him anymore." And, like, I was like, "Well, that's like saying yes twice 'cause now she's gonna rebel against you and do it." Yeah. But, but I think that, like... And I, I don't wanna speak for Josie, but for me, when I saw you and Dad so connected and so in the church, it's hard to separate, like, your expectation and image of me and, like, what I see as my value in your eyes from, like, what the church sets my value at.
Yeah. So I can see how. Yeah. And Josie and I have talked about this a lot because I've asked you a few times, like, what else could we have done? What could we have done at that point? And it's hard because, like, like Kimberly said, I think if we had been more in tune with your needs when you were younger, that maybe we would have been in a better position for you to listen.
But yeah, by that point, there just wasn't anything. I mean, I don't know what we could have done to get- Yeah ... you away from him. And from my end, I just saw Josie dating a guy that you didn't like, and I had dated guys that you didn't like. And I was like, "Well- Mm-hmm ... she's probably fine," you know? And I wish I had known more- Mm-hmm
of what that relationship was like, and more like what he was like. But I wasn't living at home at that time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so like I said, I'm having these horrible panic attacks, and I don't know where my life is going. I haven't planned for my future because I didn't think that I would have one. And so this is when I go to college, and Mom picked out my college prospects, and she picked out my major.
And Dad makes, made sure that I had my FAFSA filled out and made sure that my dorm was reserved. And the one decision that I made for myself at this point was that I broke off the engagement with this guy. I gave him his ring back. I said, "This is too much pressure. I can't be a long-distance fiance. I can be a long-distance girlfriend, but I can't be a long-distance fiance."
And I left, and he tried to convince me not to, but I did it anyway. Go Josie. And so I went to a very Mormon college in southern Utah, and I had, uh, some very Mormon roommates. And Mom, before she left, she made me promise to go to institute while I was at college. Um, I did try, but the thing that really stuck out to me at this point was that the church had always felt like a second home to me.
I had always felt safe there. It, it was just always very familiar. It was the setting for a lot of my childhood memories, and there were a lot of positive feelings around it. And when I walked into the church that was next to my school, I couldn't breathe. I felt like I was choking. I felt like something was wrong, and I just had to get out.
I couldn't be in there, and I felt like I had lost this, this safe place. Mm-hmm. The other thing about when you went to school was it was right in the middle of COVID, right? And so- Mm-hmm ... there were- Right ... weren't a lot of college activities going on. There weren't a lot of socializing activities going on, and so you were just kind of stuck in your dorm doing classes online and...
Uh, so yeah. So I was at college, and I very much still felt like I didn't know who I was and did not have great self-worth at this time. But I made a lot of great friends while I was at college, and I started kind of exploring who I was. Mm-hmm. And for the first time in my life, I felt like I was visibly not Mormon 'cause I started wearing tank tops.
Ooh. And even though my roommate was, like, this returned missionary, like very, very strong in the church, she still was, like, a very, very good friend to me as I was exploring, like, leaving the church. Mm-hmm And I think for the first time, I felt like I had value outside of being a member of the church, outside of being a daughter of God.
I felt like somebody cared about me, not just for who I was in the church. And I also, at this time, reconnected with my best friend, who, uh, eventually became my husband. And then I started going to therapy for the first time in my life. Shout out to my therapist at college. He was a real one. So I started going to therapy the fir- for the first time, and I'm unpacking all of these things that have happened.
I do remember this one particular instance. I had a really rough therapy session, and then I went to acting class right after therapy, and I was, like, trying to hold it together. And there was this guy, and I don't remember his name, I wish I did, but we were doing this, uh, this acting exercise where we had to repeat something back and forth to each other.
And he kind of always jumped in before I could think of anything, and he kind of tricked me into doing affirmations, because what he said to me was... Like, we did, we did a couple of back and forths, and then the one that I remember is he looked at me and he said, "You're so beautiful." And the exercise was I had to say back to him, "I am so beautiful," like, over and over and over again.
And I wish I remembered his name, and I wish I could give him a hug. So yeah, so I kept going to therapy. I finally broke up with that guy. Um, the cracks had kind of started showing, and I figured it out, and I left. And then as I started going through therapy, there came a point where I had kind of blamed myself my entire life for everything that had happened to me, and there came a point in my therapy journey where I stopped blaming myself for everything.
And then when I did, I got mad. I got so incredibly angry at everyone around me, and that was when my term ended and I had to go home. So I didn't get through this anger before I was suddenly back in a house with Mom and Dad, and I was so angry at them. I was so angry at the way that I was raised. I was so angry for the way that everything had happened.
And I think the only person in the world that I wasn't angry with at that point was my husband. And so eventually it reaches this boiling point. I had this fight with Mom over, over my boyfriend at the time, who became my husband, and I got this lecture from Dad, and I was so furious. And so I decided to move out in this, like, really dramatic fashion, and it was kind of being helped along by my friends at the time.
Which didn't really help because it added another layer to, like, feeling like my life was out of my control. So I moved out. It was really traumatic. It was really hurtful, I think, to everyone involved. And so now I'm out of Mom and Dad's house. I've left behind, like, the things that I felt tied me to them.
Like, I've left behind the car that they pay for and the phone that they pay for, so, like, they don't have anything on me anymore, basically. And for a while, I think that I really considered just going ghost and not talking to anyone anymore. And really, it was at that point that I had to decide that my family was more important to me than the hurt that I had gone through, and that I wanted a relationship with my family bad enough to be able to work through the things that hurt and the things that had gone wrong.
And that's kind of one of the things that you touched on in your steps is, like, establishing a shared desire for a relationship, 'cause there was a lot that we had to go through. But I think when you really decide that it's, you know, worth it, then it's easier to, to decide, work through the things that hurt.
And we're so glad you did. Yeah. I remember that time. I remember Mom telling me that you had left, and at that point I had just moved to DC, and I remember feeling kind of like it was exactly like when our older sibling had done it. And I was like, "Oh, no," like, "What happened?" You know? I think I also kind of blamed Mom and Dad.
And I remember being freaked out that I didn't have your number anymore, and I think that you texted me and a couple of other siblings and said, "Hey, this is my number now." So that really helped. Well, you texted me on Facebook after I left. Oh, right. And you talked to me a little bit, and then you told our, our oldest sibling to text me.
I remember that was important, is I told her, I said, "Hey, Josie's going through something. I don't know what this feels like," you know? "I haven't been in this situation." Yeah. "I think it would really help if you reached out." Um- And I do, I do remember because I hadn't heard from them in years by that point, and they texted me.
And I do remember, like, when I was struggling with that, because one of the things that they said to me is I asked them at one point, I'm like, "Do you ever regret leaving?" Mm-hmm. Like, "Do you ever regret losing that relationship with, with your family?" And she said, "Sometimes." She said, "Sometimes it's really hard not knowing what's going on with my siblings."
And that was one of the things for me because, like, I knew, I knew that if I was giving up that relationship with my parents, it either made it really difficult or completely obliterated any chance I had of, like, connecting to the rest of my family. Mm-hmm. Do you have anything? Well, I, it, it was, it was really painful when you moved out, and, and we were really shocked by it, to be honest, because we knew that you had, had...
That you were angry, that you were frustrated, that lots had gone on, but we didn't... I don't think that we knew the degree- Oops ... that you, you blamed us. You know, that we- Mm-hmm. You know, 'cause this is the thing, is that honestly, we... This doesn't make it okay. This isn't an, a- an excuse. It's more as an ex- explanation, but we just didn't...
We were doing the best that we knew how. There was never a time that we were just like, "Hmm, we're just gonna try to hurt- Right ... our kids," ever. Mm-hmm. Well, I didn't think that- And, and you weren't really communicating to us what we were doing wrong or how we were doing it wrong or what you needed or any of those things.
It was just you were just angry, and we just knew that you were angry. And then, and then you were gone. And you were doing the best that you could. We were doing the best that we could. Neither of those things was enough at that point. And I, like, just looking back, I think, like, if I could... Like, I don't know.
Like, I think we just have to expect that things are going to get wrecked, and we're going to have to repair them. And I think that that was probably the most important thing for me to realize at the time. And, like, the thing that started to build that bridge back is just that none of us know what we're doing.
None of us really know, and that fundamentally, you just wanted me to be happy. And you thought that you knew how I could be happy. Mm-hmm. And you were doing the best that you had with the information that you had. Yeah. Well, and I remember, I, I'm trying to think. I don't remember exactly how we got back in touch with you.
Uh, you must have called y- or something. But we started just going to lunch, right? We just started... I would come and get you, and we, just you and I would go get some lunch and talk, and that just kind of... I don't know. That just, we just kind of slowly built it back. We ki- And... Well, we kind of started to talk about the things that had happened and, like, because we hadn't communicated very well up until that point.
Yeah. I went from not feeling like I could talk to you to just not wanting to talk to you. And so we, at that point, we kind of started to examine the things that had happened from both of our perspectives, and there were those conversations of like, "This is, this is how I remember that. And this is, like, what I was trying to do in that moment."
And, you know, going, "Well, this is, this is what that looked like for me." Yeah. And we've had a lot of those conversations ever since, and, and they're still painful sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. What do you feel like was the most important or something that was really helpful to you, to us reconstructing our family after you kinda left?
So like I said, just kind of like rebuilding that communication and understanding that, like, my family does care about me and, like, them not understanding me is not necessarily a failing on their part. Like, I haven't been talking to them, and that's on me. Mm-hmm. And also just taking responsibility for like...
Because when I came home from college and I was so angry at everyone, I was not taking accountability for anything. Like, anything that happened- Mm-hmm ... there was just this fundamental part of my brain that went, "There is absolutely nothing wrong with me. I have never done anything wrong in my life, so clearly this is your fault."
Right. And like having to get through that. Yeah. And I kind of remember that angry period too, and it, it is hard because in these complex relationships, like some of the anger is deserved, right? Like, Mom and Dad did do some things wrong, and I did some things wrong as your sister, and also you did some things wrong.
And I am so grateful that you did come to a place where you wanted this relationship enough to work through that with us, and that's kind of where we all fall in our relationships- Mm-hmm ... right, is like just coming together and loving each other enough to do the hard parts. Well, and I love so much that you cared enough about her to reach out to her and to build that bridge when I couldn't.
Mm-hmm. Right? That, that, that that connection existed between, between the siblings. Yeah. And I, you know, and I know that you guys talk through things that we still don't quite, um- Yeah ... you know. 'Cause there were a lot of people that texted me during that time, and I think Kim was the first person who I responded to.
Well, I remember too, 'cause, you know, it's so great to be so cared about. But like I know when I was going through things sometimes, like I could see the phone tree that Mom created because people would text me and be like- Right ... "Just checking in. Are you good?" And I remember we had extended family that visited us in DC at the time that that had happened, and I was like, "Do not text her."
I was like, "Text her in a couple of weeks. Do that." But like it, it makes it almost sometimes worse when like, uh- Right, because you feel like they're flying monkeys. A little bit. Right. You feel like, "Oh, now I'm in trouble. Like, now everybody knows my business." And it's like, it, it really is just everybody cares and everybody wants to know that you're okay.
Right. And everybody's, like, throwing the, the life raft kind of to be like, "Just cling onto one. Who can, who can get you? Who can just check in and make sure you're okay, or make sure that you know that you're loved and cared for and nothing bad or worse happened?" Like, you know- Yeah ... just making sure that you know that you're loved and supported.
But I am glad, because I think that when our older sibling left, like, we were all young and we were all, like, projecting this image of trying to be the perfect Mormon children. Mm-hmm. Versus, like, when you left and now, like, I feel like we all understand that we don't have that expectation for each other anymore, and I feel like it's easier to reach for, for each other and get support from one another.
Yeah, I mean, like, my wedding was, like, the most magical time of my whole life, but it was also, like, it was just that, like, all of us reconnecting. I mean, it was one of the, like... 'Cause our oldest sibling came to the family reunion that year, but, like, the wedding was, like, all of us together for the longest that we had had been in, like, decades.
Yeah. Um- Yeah. No, it was really fun. Well, thank you for coming on and sharing your story, and thank you for being my sister and for having a continued relationship with me. Mm-hmm. And I love you both so much. I love you guys too. Love you too. And we'll have you on again sometime and talk about happier things.
Yeah. And maybe t- you know, and there's some parts of your story, I think, too, that are important to discuss, like the fact that bishops need better training. Mm-hmm. You know? And- Obedience and scripturality and the ways that those affect people who aren't neurotypical and, and all- Yeah ... of those things that really affected your story, and I'm glad that we have a better perspective just from hearing your story.
Yes, and hopefully it can help somebody else too. Love you guys so much. Mm-hmm. I'm so glad I'm your mom. I love you too. Okay. All right. Talk to you soon.