Episode 16
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Hi, I'm Kari. ~And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Coco, a conversation... Ugh. And I'm Kimberly, and this... I'm out of practice. Yes.~ And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Coco, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide.
And we are back from a kind of break. This is now what we're calling season two. Yeah. I'm so excited to be recording again. We've had a good time off. Me too. It's been, I... It's been good to have a minute off because this has been a lot more work than I actually anticipated that it would be, but also I've missed doing it.
It's a lot of fun to do, and so- Well, and also 'cause you've been coaching a lot in between, so you, you don't have as much of a break, but- Well, a break from this You're kind of always a person in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but... And of course, like, we still talk when we're on break, but- Yeah ... but not in this way, so this [00:01:00] is fun.
This is fun to be back. Yeah. So do you have a testimony today? Do I ever, Mom. Yay. Um, famously this week I went to the Harry Styles residency- Ah ... in MSG, and- Wow ... man, oh, man, I have to say that my crush on Harry Styles in high school was very valid. Mm. Still an amazing man. Um, the show was incredible. He did announce that he's going to other parts of the US.
Um, I am kind of tempted to go visit one of my siblings that lives in Arizona when he's in Arizona- Yeah ... and see him again, um, just as a double whammy. But it was a great show. It was so much fun. Um, I'm definitely gonna try and go again, um, even though, like, the ticket was, like... Well, I got a great deal. My ticket was $300, and I was in the hundred level, which- Oh
is really good, but, um, I would pay $300 to see him again. And- Yeah ... there's not a lot of things that I would say that about. [00:02:00] Yeah. That's cool. Oh, I love it. It was so fun. Yeah. Crush renewed, huh? Ugh, absolutely. Good. Okay. My testimony is on something silly, but I... This has, like, changed my life for the better, so.
Ooh. I know. So it's ca- it's called True Lime, and they're these little packets. Have you seen them? I have them in my cabinet right now. You do? They are my favorite thing. Oh, my gosh. They're so delicious. They are so good. They are so good. In a Diet Coke, oh, my gosh. Ugh. Like heaven. Diet Dr Pepper for me.
Lime and Dr Pepper. Really? Oh, yeah. Okay. I also get those Torlenti, like, they sell on Amazon miniature Torlenti flavorings. Oh. So I'll put, like, some coconut, some lime in it. It's delicious. Oh. I'm gonna have to try the coconut 'cause I do- Yeah ... love a good coconut lime. But they have, they [00:03:00] have grapefruit ones and lemon ones too, and the grapefruit ones are really good in water.
And so are the lemon ones. Ooh. But, um, that's, that I, so that's what I've tried so far. But I keep the little packet in my purse so I can throw it in my, in my gas station drink and- I didn't know they have- grapefruit ones. This is changing my life. Mm-hmm. You wouldn't know this, but that would probably be delicious in a tequila soda.
I wouldn't, but, but enjoy. That's so funny. Okay. So today we're talking about, um, because we're talking about why so many young women are leaving the church. There's been a lot of buzz about it lately. An article came out by Jenna Rees. She writes for The Salt Lake Tribune, which is famously a less Mormon Utah newspaper.
So there, there's been a lot of people talking about, about this lately, and we just thought we'd give our take on it. Yeah. It seems to be one of the biggest topics from our little [00:04:00] break that's come up that I'm like- Yeah ... "Ugh, I kind of wish we were recording so that we could talk about it." So we're talking- Yeah
about it now. So I read the article. Did you read the article? I did. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I liked how she broke it down into, like, three main reasons, and those reasons- Mm ... kind of ring true to me. They were politics, um, purity culture, and power within the church. Um- Mm ... I don't know. Did, did those points ring true to you?
Um, I think that, yeah, they're real problems that we're having, right? They're real issues. Mm-hmm. Um, all of those things I have resonated with in, um, in different ways, right? Like I've had- Mm ... problems with in different ways. And Jenna Rees, she also... I should have mentioned, she also wrote the book The Next Mormons, and she has another book coming out soon.
So she's done a lot of research around, like, why people leave the church and, and what the future of the LDS Church might be based on, you know, the current trends and the [00:05:00] current, um, feelings towards the church that millennials and younger generations have. So it's interesting. Yeah. And I also listen to a lot of different TikToks and podcasts that have been talking about this as it's come up, so it's kind of been interesting.
We're coming at this after sifting through a lot of the information. Mm-hmm. Um, but I kind of just wanted to address each thing and talk about how it's affected us and how it's different, because we're kind of straddling two different generations and it's obviously- Yeah ... affected the outcome. Like, you stayed in the church, and that has been really...
Like, that staying power has really outlasted, and you've stayed. You're a lifelong member. And for me, I left the church, so Yeah ... um, I think it'll be interesting- To hear how you feel about it and kind of talk about, like, what's been coming up for me. So the first one that she mentions is politics, and we know that Gen Z men are trending towards being more [00:06:00] right-wing, but Gen Z women are trending more left.
Mm-hmm. And the church has always been kind of right-wing, at least in the US. Would you say that's true? Yeah. It definitely is true. I mean, when I was growing up, um, Ezra Taft Benson was the prophet, and he actually said, not when he was the prophet, but when he was an apostle, before he became the prophet, he said that you couldn't be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time.
And a lot of people took that seriously. But, like, I, I also have always known good people who were Democrats and who were Mormons. Um- Mm-hmm ... my grandpa was a diehard Democrat, and, um, which was interesting because my grandma was a Republican, and they had a... You know, I knew a few different couples like that, that would, that they would say that they were going to the polls to cancel each other out, basically Yeah
because they just voted on [00:07:00] opposite sides. And I think Dad and I kind of find ourselves in that position now where we have different, differing political opinions, which wasn't true when we first got married. I, I was definitely more Republican when, when we first got married, and my political leanings have changed a bit in that time.
Yeah. Well, it's interesting what you said about, um, Ezra Taft Benson saying that about being a Democrat because, um, there was that one time in church, um, in testimony meeting, which if you're not Mormon, once a month Mormons have open mic night where- ... they let anyone in the congregation come up and bear their testimony about the church.
And, um, it's called Fast and Testimony because it correlates with a fast that Mormons do once a month as well. Mm-hmm. And there was one Fast and Testimony meeting when I was growing up where someone came up and was really, really upset because someone [00:08:00] in the congregation had said something to her about being Democrat and being Mormon, and she brought it up from the pulpit and started ranting about how she could be a good Mormon and also be a Democrat.
And an older gentleman stood up in the back of the church and said, - "I'll change her name. Sister Smith, Sister Smith, this is not the time or place for this kind of rant," or something. What did he say? He said, "I will..." I think he said something like, "I will not stay here one more minute and listen to this," or something.
It was, it was an exciting sacrament meeting for sure. Oh, wow. And Dad was bishop, so people were following people as they stormed out of the chapel. Um- So i- it's a hot topic. Like, people in the church- Yeah ... really feel strongly about political affiliations with the church. And in America in general, [00:09:00] especially since the Reagan era, there is, like, a really strong correlation between being Christian and being Republican, and I think that that's put a lot of people at odds with churches in general, and a lot of churches have had- Mm
to change and adapt. Um- I wanted to say too, though, specifically the church policy is that we do not take a political position. We do not support candidates. We do not support, um, parties, and that's in the handbook. Now, individual members, of course, vary widely and say things, uh, you know, and may say things that are different than that and may do things that are different than that.
But the official church position is that we do not, um, we do not get involved in politics. But also, in my lifetime, when the church has gotten involved in politics- Yeah ... it has been aligned with right-wing policies. [00:10:00] Yeah. Well, the most specific one, of course, was Prop 8 in California, where, um, where the church encouraged members to get out and campaign against Prop 8, against the legalization of same-sex marriage.
And, and I think that that, I, like, I hope that they learned some lessons from that because that ended up being a huge disaster, like a huge problem for a lot of members and a, and a lot of non-members. It really affected the, the church's image and was a bad thing, so. Yeah. Well, I also feel like it wasn't just them telling people to go out and offer support to this.
They were also encouraging members who could to offer financial support. Yeah. And of course, we don't know the church's finances. They've historically been very secretive of them, but I'd be surprised that there, if there wasn't lobbying money that went towards that as [00:11:00] well. Yeah. I, I don't know the details of that, but I do know that there was, um, like it seems like there was some legal reasons why the church could not contribute to campaigns, and so they were really encouraging members to contribute to the campaign.
But, but I could be completely wrong on that, and so I don't wanna, um, you know, state that categorically. Yeah. I, I haven't looked into it either. I just- Mm ... found that really cr- like that's, that's a huge call for- Yeah ... movement from your concreation, you know? Yeah. And, and it did align with right wings. And I do think that a lot of the politics that were discussed in this article that are kind of putting people at odds with the church are social politics.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and that doesn't change, uh, [00:12:00] like whether the church is supporting a specific political affiliation or not. Um, if you- Mm-hmm ... are someone who believes politically that men and women should be equal and they're not in the church- Mm-hmm ... it doesn't matter if the church says that they're supporting a different political party, that specific like social phenomenon still exists.
Or if you- Yeah ... believe in gay rights and the church doesn't and doesn't provide equal marriage rights to gay couples, then, then you're at odds. Yeah. Yeah. This one has been a really fascinating one for me because to watch so many very religious people take positions that, that I feel are un-Christlike because- Mm-hmm
of politics, I, it, it has been really interesting to me to watch how, how the name of Christ is used by both sides in different ways. Mm-hmm. And it's like, it's like, okay, what sort of Christ do you believe in? Do you believe in the kind of [00:13:00] Christ that said, "Feed the poor, and, um, comfort those in need of comfort, and love all of God's children," or do you believe in the, the kind of Christ that, um, that flipped the tables when, when people were begging in the temple or when people were selling things in the temple and, and really, um, was very strict about rules?
Um, it's just interesting to me because it almost feels like the two sides are worshiping very different Christs. Yeah. Well, and it is funny because I remember I had someone that I knew that served a mission in Europe, and they said that there it's crazy to think that Mormons in the US are typically Republican because socialism seems more aligned with Christ.
Mm-hmm. Um, which again, to your point, Christians in the US in general, not just Mormons, [00:14:00] really disagree on that. And, um- Yeah ... it just puts them in awe. Well, I've heard the, the term teddy bear Jesus thrown around where, where sometimes they s- full on- I already know I hate this. But, but they talk about how sometimes one side will, will just say that J- Christ just loved everybody no matter what, which I think is absolutely true.
I think Christ did love everybody no matter what. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I, I don't know, but that they believe that one side of it makes Christ seem too soft and too easy on people and, and just doesn't demand anything from them. And then, and then on the other side, I think, um, you know, that, that some people talk about how Christ did not ever align himself with power, right?
He always- Mm-hmm ... was against the power [00:15:00] structure and always with the marginalized and making sure that all people were valued and all people were, were given opportunities to, to live happy lives, to live good lives, you know? Yeah. And I do struggle with the current use of Christ by certain parties- Yeah
to justify kind of this stronger fist of like- Yeah ... or like use of God really as like- Yeah ... you know, this strong force that would punish certain people. Yeah. Um, but I do also think that the- there's a more caring side of it. I do remember growing up, um, some people that were anti like socialist programs, uh, did say things like, "Well, we as a community should take care of each other.
It shouldn't be up to the government to take care of each other." And I disagree with that on like- A [00:16:00] fundamental level, like I do think that, like, the, the use of government is to allow us to have social structures that are- Yeah ... implemented and organized. Um, so I think it defeats the purpose to see the government outside of your community.
Um, but I, I do know that there are some people that, like, truly are trying to believe in, in a kind God and also disagree with me politically. Um, but I do think that the things that push people to actually leave the church, where it's not just, like, a little shelf item, where the polit- where the politics conflict too much for them to reconcile on their own, is with those certain social issues that we named.
Mm-hmm. The next one is purity culture- Mm ... and we've discussed this a lot. Um- Yeah ... we have a whole episode on it, but, um, women in the church have noted that the purity culture historically has been really toxic. [00:17:00] Um, I know that the church is making some changes towards this, but I do think that for a lot of Gen Z women, the damage has been done, and that's why they're leaving.
What do you think? Yeah. Well, this is an interesting one because she talks about how you can, uh, quantify, like, messages, and they have quantified messages that were given in the church. And around the year 2000, the messages become much more, um, targeted at young women about being modest and about, um, being, like, the caretakers of virtue and that- Mm-hmm
kind of thing. And apparently before that, the messages were pretty even between men and women, or young men and young women. Um, and so I thought that was really interesting because, because I know that I was much more strict on you and your sisters about modesty than, than my parents had been, uh, [00:18:00] on me, and than my, th- my mom's parents had been on her.
Like, I was much more strict. I was holding you to a higher standard than I had been held to. And, like, I'm, I'm not sure why culturally I felt compelled to do that. Um, I mean, I'm not sure why I personally felt compelled to, to do that. I'm sure there was a cultural component to it, that, you know, that, um, other women in the ward would judge you, that I knew that that would happen.
When I was concerned about, um, you know, you becoming pornography for, for young men, that kind of thing, right? Right. So it's, so it's just interesting how that, that did change in your generation and how you were kind of specifically targeted for that. And, um- Yeah Like, I wish I knew why it changed so dr- drastic- dramatically [00:19:00] right then.
Yeah. And what you were talking about, like, where it used to be equal between the genders and was more targeted towards young women, I mean, I definitely don't think you fought with any, any of your male children about what they wore when you took them school shopping.
No, I never did. I, I never, I never had to really, I don't think. So- But, like, you never felt compelled to, right? Like- No, I never felt like there was any conflict there. Mm-hmm. Like, there wasn't ever anything that they wanted to wear that I wasn't okay with them wearing. Right. So, yeah. And outside of just modesty, I think that there's issues with how the church teaches women, like you said, to be, um, keepers of virtue rather than [00:20:00] the men.
Yeah. And, and I think that there's too much of a emphasis on how bad, like, sex before marriage is, but then the rules around that are confusing and lead to, like, all of these workarounds that, you know- Yeah ... don't really make sense. And, and then there's a lot of guilt and shame with it that I don't think that the church provides healthy avenues for women to be like, "Ugh, I had sex before marriage.
I'm gonna go repent," and then take care of it. Well, yeah, I think it's just we, we have such a weird relationship with our bodies, right? Mm-hmm. And this is one of the things, because, like, like, Mormon doctrine is that, that God has a body and that bodies are beautiful and sacred and wonderful. And like you said, we talked about this in our purity episode, but I think we just have, in, in the society at [00:21:00] large, and especially in the church, we've, we've just led women to have such a terrible relationship with our, with our bodies.
And- Mm-hmm I, I think that, that it's changing. I think it's getting better, but also, um, you know, the church has a long ways to go there. And, and I think that that's the thing with young women. A lot of times are, they're just like, "I'm not, I'm not sticking around for this," you know? Yeah. Do you feel like you got that messaging a lot when you were younger?
Do you feel like that changed? Um, I... Like, sex before marriage was definitely not okay, right? If you had sex before marriage, it was always a big deal, and it was a problem, and you needed to repent, and all of that kind of thing. I don't think I got... Well, I know I didn't get the message that I would be pornography for men.
I don't, I didn't, I don't think that I ever did get [00:22:00] that. Um- Yeah ... I think I always felt like, you know, men's, men's thoughts were not my responsibility, which I, you know- Which is in line with Christ's teachings. Yeah. I- Like pluck out your eye. Yeah. Like, that's very clearly the men's responsibility. Yeah.
Well, and did you ever get the lesson when you were in Young Women's, the, either the flower or the chocolate bar being passed around, and then once everybody's touched it, it's like, "Who wants this?" No, I- It's lost its value. Yeah. I never did have any l- lesson like that. Okay. Um, your aunt, who is a few years younger than me, I remember her telling me that was the first time I remember hearing that lesson, was she had that lesson.
But she was funny because because she had it when she was young enough that she was just like, "I'll take the candy bar." Like, [00:23:00] "I want it. Nobody else wants it, I want it." So... Which is actually, I think, more accurate to real life. Right. I don't know. So I, I don't know if I just was lucky enough that I was, just barely missed those kinds of lessons or whatever, but, but no, I did not get that, that messaging.
Oh, yeah. That's something that's come up a lot when people are having this conversation, along with- Yes ... the quote that we keep referencing from Dallin H. Oaks, the current president of the church, who said, "When you dress immodestly, be- you become pornography for men." Yeah. But I remember that, that messaging a lot, and I, I, I don't know, are you working with the young women enough that you, you can say whether that's gone away or seeded in the church?
I'm not. I'm not. I think that there is quite a bit more awareness of it. Mm-hmm. I do know that, like, Elizabeth Smart made a, a big push to change that- Yes ... [00:24:00] particular lesson, so I know that that's kind of rotated out of the church's teachings. I don't really know what the messaging is like to young women now, and if this, you know, exodus of women leaving the church is affecting how the leadership is deciding to communicate with the youth.
Yeah. Um- That would be interesting to, to know. Maybe I need to tune in more to that, but, um... Yeah. Well, they obviously don't recite the Young Women values anymore. They've changed the Young Women program a lot. Um, so- Yeah ... they're not having virtue as one of their values that they have to- Yeah ... learn about every week.
Um, so there's probably been some changes, but obviously not enough. And I-- the last thing is I do know personally a lot of women who have left because they were sexually assaulted at some time, um, and were told that they had to repent for that. [00:25:00] Yeah. That is a huge issue. Yeah. The last thing that she blames or says as a reason is the power imbalances in the church, um, which we've spoken on before and is- Mm-hmm
obviously very prevalent. Um, and I would also link this with, like, the bioessentialism in the church, which is that men and women each are eternally men and women and have a divine nature attached to that gender. Yeah. I think that that, that is a very clear message in the church right now, is that men are men and women are women.
And for me personally, I think that that's something that, that we just don't understand completely. Like, it's one of the things that we think we know, that we don't know as much about it as, as we need to. Boyd K. Packer famously was-- this was kind of his, his pet project, I think. I remember several talks that he gave of, like, [00:26:00] "This never happens in the animal kingdom."
Well, we-- now we know it does happen in the animal kingdom. Mm-hmm. Right? And we know that, that some animals can change genders spontaneously, and we know that some animals participate in homosexual behavior. And so, so we know that that's not true and that he was, that he was misinformed about that. He, we also know- Mm-hmm
that, you know, scientifically, we know that there are multiple genders, that there are people that are born with characteristics of both sexes, that are born intersex. And, and so, like, it's one of those things that we just don't know a-as much about as we h- previously thought that we did. Yeah. I also, as far as the power imbalance and the assignment in the church- Mm-hmm
even if you believed in this bioessentialism, even if you believe we each have a part to play based off of our gender, I do think that there is a problem with the patriarchy in the church, and thinking that we need to be so patriarchy-forward. Um, not [00:27:00] having women high enough in leadership, I think if you have this idea of like a yin and a yang, and like, um, this bioessentialism, wouldn't you then think that we need both within power structures?
If we're going to say, yes, you have a f- heavenly Father and a heavenly Mother, and both were important to creating the Earth and mankind, then don't you want both a man and woman in power? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, wouldn't they both be in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles? If the women in the Bible were so essential to Jesus and, um, his, his gospel, wouldn't we want that in the church?
Yeah. Yeah. It is, it's very interesting because, because there's a lot of talk about partnership between- Mm ... men and women. And I think it's, I think it's a beautiful idea, and I think it's valid in a lot of situations, right? Like, I... It's interesting 'cause, 'cause your dad and I have a [00:28:00] very traditional kind of relationship, we just always have- Mm-hmm
um, where, you know, he's worked outside of the home, and I stayed home with the kids, and like I do the housework, and he does y- the yard work. Like, all of the things. Like, he takes care of the cars, and I take care of the emotions, and that kind of thing. But that's a lot because that's just how he and I are built.
And it probably is a lot how we were raised and acculturated, and all of that kind of thing. But, but like that's more because it works, works for us. But I think we have to be more open to situations that, like this, it, it doesn't work for everybody this way, right? Mm-hmm. This isn't the best way for every situation.
And, um, rather than trying to force everybody into those pigeonholes, into fulfilling those roles that their genitalia dictate, right? Yeah. Like, it's just... It, [00:29:00] I think it's just a thing where- Where we just have to listen to people, particularly people who are saying that this isn't working for, for us, right?
And- Right ... and so I do think it's so important to get more women's voices in power in the church, and that just isn't happening as, as quickly as we would like it to happen. And there's a big push against it because women can't hold the priesthood. Mm. And I don't know when, if ever, that's gonna change, if there will ever be a revelation that the priesthood is not confined to a gender.
Yeah. It's funny to me because, because for so much of my life, that was just logical, right? That men hold the priesthood- Mm-hmm ... and like, uh, men can't be mothers, and so they hold the priesthood, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... and so, so things like that, that were just, just seemed completely logical. And I think I've just encountered enough stories and [00:30:00] enough situations where it's just like, okay, that doesn't always make sense.
It just doesn't always make sense- Mm ... in every situation, and we need, we need to be listening to people more a- about what would work better. There was this interesting podcast I listened to. It was this podcaster I love that lives in New York, Chelsea Fagan. Mm-hmm. And she was... She does a finance podcast, so she was interviewing a woman who had been Mormon and been, like, a traditional housewife her whole life.
And, um, it was Kim Schlag, and she now has a coaching program where she does fitness coaching, um, and has been really successful in that. But they were talking about something really interesting, and Chelsea said, "It seems like in your church, there's a very high expectation for women to achieve, and then they don't do anything with that," right?
Like- Mm ... we spend our entire time growing up, like, I remember the Young Women's model of, um, what was it? Personal progress model, where you have to [00:31:00] be able to be a good performer. You need to be able to public speak. You need to be able to sew. You need to be able to cook. You need to be able to teach and to work in your community, and we have all of these, like, specific goals that we have to hit and work towards and do projects for.
Um, not even counting the fact that the church has a really high emphasis on women to be educated and to get higher education, but then to work in the home. Mm-hmm. And also then not hold any leadership in their community. Yeah. It's interesting. I, I don't know if you've come across this, but our general Relief Society president right now, I don't know exactly how old is she is, but she's gotta be close to my age.
Mm-hmm. Um, and she, uh, was... She had a career as a lawyer- outside of the home. And so there's been a huge backlash about that because, you know, we grew up at, like, I grew up in a time where I was told that I was supposed to stay home with my kids. [00:32:00] Wasn't there even, like, a general conference talk that said, like, when women- Oh, yeah
were culturally entering the workforce, that said, "Women, go back home-" Yeah. "... like, your families need you"? Yes. There was. Yeah. And so this woman who was, who would have heard that talk and chose to work as a lawyer anyways, now she is the General Relief Society president. And so there's a lot of women in the church that are, that have been like, "Wait a second.
I did what I was told. I stayed-" Mm-hmm. "... home with, with my children and, and I would have loved to have had a career." Mm-hmm. Um, and she didn't, and she's elevated to this position. And, and, like, she's a lovely, lovely woman. Like, I, I am not trying to throw shade on her at all because I think she's a really great example to, to women.
But I can also see how women in the church who wanted to have a career and chose not to, how that could [00:33:00] be really hurtful to them, that- Yeah ... you know, she's in this position. So- Well, it's also a huge financial sacrifice. Like- Yeah ... and it's one that most people in my generation can't make. Like, a lot of women- Yeah
I know that are still in the church work still. Like- Yeah ... both they and their husbands work. Like, dual income is almost essential at this point. Yeah. So it's a huge- Mm-hmm ... sacrifice to have some person in the relationship- Yeah ... and you have a family not working. I mean, for my part, like, I was really, really grateful that I was always able to stay home with you guys.
Mm-hmm. I loved being a mother. I loved h- being at home and, you know, taking care of my kids. And we never had a ton of money, but we never starved, right? Mm-hmm. Um, it would've been, like, another income certainly would've been useful, and we would've been able to, to help you guys more as you, as you grew up.
But from what [00:34:00] I see now, like, that was a very privileged position, right? That was really- Yeah. And, and it put a pr- a lot of pressure on your dad too, um- Yeah, to fully provide for the family ... to pay for everything, yeah, and especially because we had such a big family. Yeah. And you guys were expensive. Then that's to be here.
This is fair. I think that kind of leads me to my last point that I found outside of the article, which is that women just aren't seeing themselves in the model for a woman in the church anymore. Um, and I- Mm ... certainly feel that. Like, I wouldn't go back to the church right now even if I had an angel come to me and say it was r- true.
Like- Mm-hmm ... I, because I just am not accepted in that culture, and a lot of women are feeling that way. More women than ever are getting married later or not married at all. Um, they have careers. I'm almost 30. I live in New York. I have a career. I've, I [00:35:00] haven't cut myself off from dating, but I haven't found someone who fits what I would like in a husband and also wants to marry me.
Like, that hasn't happened. Mm. Um, and it's not even necessarily my fault, but I wouldn't fit into- Mm ... a woman's role in the church. Yeah. Interesting. And we went on, um, Richard Ostler's podcast, and he had someone on after us who's also 30 and single and lives in New York, um, Hannah Larson, and she's an active member.
And it was interesting to hear her podcast and her talk about how she tries to find space for people that are marginalized in the church, including her as a single woman. But it is hard when you're in a church and, and your value is reduced to if you found a husband or not. Mm-hmm. Um, especially with how dating is right now.
Yeah, 'cause my point of view is that the church should be for all of God's children- [00:36:00] Mm-hmm ... no matter what they are, right? All human beings are God's children, and there should be a place in God's church if, if it truly is God's kingdom- Mm-hmm ... there should be a place for all human beings there, right? Yeah.
No matter who they are or no matter what about them. And so, and so that's the thing to me is it's like I want to make the church a bigger place and a more accepting place, a place where all of God's children can be accepted and loved and valued. And I don't think that that's everybody's vision for the church.
I don't, but that's a lot of why I stay is because I think it should be a place where everybody is loved and accepted. Mm-hmm. But I think with the way that the world is going and the way that women have to react to those changes in the world- Mm-hmm ... and also the way that the church has reacted to the world changing Mm.
Um, and their lack of adaption, I, I completely understand how they're losing [00:37:00] that membership. Yeah. And that's the thing is that if the church is an abusive place for you or, you know, or a painful place, it's understandable. You have to live your life in a way that, that makes you happy, and if the church is making you miserable, then I- Mm-hmm
I can't see any reason why, why you would stay Yeah. Or making you feel consistently inadequate, right? Yeah. Like, to me, a Zion of some sort would be a place where everyone's individual personalities and talents would be taken into account to how that can contribute to a wholesome society. And when you try to shove people into gender norms or when you're trying to not let people grow into the talents that they do have- Yeah
then you're repressing a lot of the good that could be built. Yes. And so we're losing a lot of the good, and it, it is, it's really heartbreaking to me. It is. [00:38:00] Mm-hmm. But I'm not in charge either. I- Well, you are a woman, so... I am a woman, so- I'm just saying ... I don't know. I just think, I don't know, to me it's, it's a process, right?
It's a process of growth and, and it's a slow process in so many ways, and it's frustrating because it's like- Mm-hmm ... okay, while we're holding onto these ideas that aren't even really the gospel, right? They aren't even really the teachings of Christ. While we're clinging to those things, we're losing really valuable people, and we're losing really- Mm-hmm
beautiful minds and hearts and- Mm-hmm ... um, yeah, it just really breaks my heart. Yeah. I remembered another example I was gonna give where, like- Mm ... even in the positions that women are allowed to be in in church, they're, like, highly monitored or [00:39:00] criticized. Like, I love this TikTok of this woman who a- is, um, a part of the church in Arizona, and she always brings diet sodas or, like, sodas in general- Yes
and a treat. Uh-huh. And I'm like, well, that's, that's what the church says women are supposed to do, which is to nurture and to build community. And- Uh-huh ... um, people, like, criticize her for, like, not being sacred enough or, like, you know, that's not appropriate for church- Yeah ... and... Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's fascinating to me- It's crazy
like, uh, like that's just another case of we all think we're right, right? We all think that we know the right thing to do, and that's, like, it's internet culture, but it's also, like, it's in, it's inside the church and outside the church. We just all- Mm-hmm ... feel free to give our opinions on everybody else, right?
Yeah. Like, it's kinda crazy. But I'm glad that you're in the church trying to at least be a space where you accept the outliers that try to be a [00:40:00] part of the change. I'm- Uh, I don't know. Like, like I'm just a teeny, tiny fish in a very, very big pond. And so I don't, I know that I don't make that big of an impact.
But I do know, um, having been in the church and watched the changes that have been made over my lifetime, that the church is changing and it is- Mm-hmm ... it is growing and developing. And like the idea of the ongoing restoration I think is very real to me. Mm-hmm. But I also, like I absolutely understand why a lot of people are just like, "I'm, I'm not gonna keep submitting myself to this situation."
Yeah. Like, I get that. Yeah. All right. Um- Well, thanks for having this c- conversation with me. I love you. I love you so much. It's fun to talk to you again. Yeah. Mm. Glad we're back. Talk to you soon. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye.
[00:41:00] And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Coco, a conversation... Ugh. And I'm Kimberly, and this... I'm out of practice. Yes. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Coco, a conversation... Ugh. And I'm Kimberly, and this... I'm out of practice. Yes.