Bonus Episode Listen Learn, & Love
===
[00:00:00]
Hi, this is Kari. We're taking a break from the Coffee & Cocoa podcast. We plan to do this in seasons, and so we're gonna take a six-week break, and then we'll be back in October. We have some fun plans for the next season. But for today, we'd like to bring you this bonus episode. We had the wonderful opportunity of being on the Listen, Love and Learn podcast with Richard Ostler.
His podcast is about giving voice to some of the marginalized people in the LDS community, and he does a really good job there of allowing people to share their stories in their own words. And so it's a really important work, and Richard himself is just such a warm and kind and lovely person, and we really enjoyed our visit with him.
So we hope you will enjoy it too. Just as a program note, the audio tracks in this recording, for some reason, are offset, and so you might enjoy it more if you go to the Listen, Love and Learn YouTube channel and listen to it there. We'll link that in the show notes. If you have enjoyed the Coffee and [00:01:00] Cocoa podcast, it would mean the world to us if you would like and subscribe to it on our YouTube channel or rate and review it on iTunes or on Spotify, or even just share it with somebody that you think might enjoy it.
It would really help us to grow the reach of our podcast, and we would really appreciate that. We've loved doing this, and we hope that you've enjoyed listening. So thanks so much, and we will see you in October Hello. Welcome, listeners, to another episode of Listen, Learn, and Love hosted by Richard Ostler. We have a mother and dau- daughter, um, team on the podcast today, Kari Bates and her daughter Kimberly Bates. Bates- Thank you. Thank you ... welcome to the podcast
Um, these two women host a podcast called Coffee and Cocoa, and it's the story about an active LDS mom with six adult children. That's Kari, [00:02:00] and all of her children have left the church, and that's a, kind of a difficult road for LDS parents. We're walking that road. We have six kids, and many of our kids have left the church.
And she's doing this podcast with her daughter, Kimberly, who's joining us from New York City. She's in HR at a really cool company that I love, and, and Kari's joining us from her home in Elko, Nevada. And they've started a podcast just to talk about how to keep the relationships together when adult children leave the church, and that's so needed.
And I love-- I listened to one of their episodes, and I love how they're role modeling this in their own story and just sharing how to build bridges and how to keep the relationship together One of the things that Kari sent me in the email, um, and I'll read this, "We wanna talk about how we rebuilt and maintain our relationship in spite of the fact that, um, all of our kids, including Kimberly, who's on the podcast, have left the Church.
I'm still in [00:03:00] the Church. We want to share principles for building relationships a- across dividing lines, and why it's so important now in our world when things are so divided." So holy cow, is that needed. Um, we will link to this b- to their podcast. They've done about 15 episodes. It's called Coffee & Cocoa.
Just check out the show notes to listen to this podcast. Um, Kari is a, um, a life coach for LDS moms that have children that have left the Church, including queer children. That's part of the Bates's story. They have some kids that identify as queer, and so she's just really good at this space as a life coach.
We'll put her Instagram account in the show notes. You can DM her on Instagram. Um, anyway, but we just hope and pray, we said a prayer before we started, this will be helpful for you. Maybe if you've left the Church and you're trying to help build this, rebuild or keep a relationship with your parents, this will help you, or parents, this will help you, or any of us that are just [00:04:00] trying to maintain relationships with people that believe religiously or politically in other ways that are different than us, and that's so needed.
And so instead of just theoretically talking about we need to love each other, these two women are bravely stepping forward and showing how they're doing that in the Bates family. So I'm really honored to have them on the podcast. And with that, I'll, I'll kind of quit talking. I've done my little introduction, and turn it over to Kari Bates from Elko, Nevada, the mom, and Kimberly Bat- Bates- Thank you
um, the daughter- Um- ... in New York. And I wanted to say too, like I just have appreciated your podcast so much and, and other people have stepped into this space because, because people's stories are so important, right? We can believe things, and we can have really firm testimonies of, of principles, and that as long as they work well in our life, and then sometimes when, when those things stop working, um, it, [00:05:00] it can be really, it can be really difficult, and it can be really difficult to change your mind about something when it's still working for you until you hear somebody's story that it's not working for anymore, right?
And that's, that's definitely been a lot of my experience is, is that, you know, I grew up in the Church in the '80s in, um, you know, right in the center of Mormondom, as we would have called it then. Um- And I still use the word Mormon a lot, so if that's, I hope that that's not too big of a problem. Um, but- That's just fine
but the church just always worked so well for me. All the way growing up, it was just my safe place. It was my family's safe place. Um, you know, and it was just, it was just built for my life. Um, we were just kind of a middle-class family and, and, and white family and had a lot of privilege in, in those ways.
[00:06:00] Um, you know, and, and everything just, just worked so well. We had all, like, all of my, both sets of my grandparents had moved from Utah, had, you know, I have pioneer ancestry on both sides, but both sets of my grandparents had moved to southern Nevada to, for work, and they had raised their families there.
And so we had, I had all of my aunts and uncles and cousins, and everybody was very firmly in the church, very, you know, it was just one of these big Mormon families that we just had. It was, and it was such a beautiful way to grow up and, and I loved it so much. Um, and the church in the '80s was so fun, right?
I, I, I, you're a little bit older than me, but it was just a great time. We had road shows and, and church dance, girls camp, and, and it just seemed like life just revolved around the church, right? Everything had to do with the church. Was that your [00:07:00] experience too? Yeah, and it was, they, like- Very much. It was great
I remember thinking, um, as a teenager, you know, because we always have this kind of narrative of, of being persecuted, that we're gonna be persecuted and people are gonna hate us. And I re- just remember thinking, "Why would that ever happen? This is so great and so wonderful." And you know, not that my life was perfect or anything like that, but, but it really was just a very idyllic way to grow up.
And, um, and so of course, you know, as I grew up, then that's what I wanted for, for my family, too. I went to school to be a teacher because that was the closest degree that I could, could get to being a mom, right? And then, um, met my husband at school and we just, um, we- he was actually the family home evening dad, and I was the family home evening mom.
So I like to say that we had an arranged marriage. Um, but, [00:08:00] um, and s- and we just dove in and started having kids right away. We had six kids in rapid succession, six kids in 10 years, basically. Um, and just were raising them in the church and, and loving how that went. Um, he was the bishop for a lot of, for...
He became the bishop... How old were you, Kimberly, when he became the bishop? I was 11 when he became bishop. You were 11. And he was... So from the time you were 11 to about 17, 18? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So most of her teenage years, he was the bishop and, um, you know, and it was just... And I, like, in college, I had had a little bit of an experience where, where I didn't go to church for a while and just kind of experimented with some things and, and that was such a bad experience that I was just like, "Get right back in the church, right back on the path," and, and you know, that [00:09:00] was before I, I married my husband and stuff.
So, um So, like I said, it just always really, really worked well for me. And, um, and I had hoped that... You know, Kimberly, when she was, was a teenager, was a little bit rebellious and stuff, but I had also been a r- a little bit rebellious and had some fights with my mom and, um, and so in my mind, it was always just like, "Oh, she'll come around.
She'll come... You know, she, she doesn't like me right now, but she'll come back to the church and she'll, she'll change her mind about all of these things." And, and you know, and her experience was, was different than that, so- Yeah ... do you wanna talk about your experience? Well, I, I was also raised in the church, obviously.
My parents were very staunch about following the church rules. So we really observed the Sabbath day. We went to church as a [00:10:00] family. It was very important. We watched our parents do tithing settlement and be full tithe payers. We did fast Sundays together. We were as perfect as they say you should be. We really tried.
And I think for me, when I started rebelling, I felt like I wasn't fitting into that anymore. Um, like my mom said, my dad was bishop from the time that I was 11 to 17, which is just the worst time for him to be a bishop. For me personally, I think he was... Served the war- ward as best as he could, but that was a time where I was put into a position of really being seen by the ward and really judged by the ward.
There were things that happened, like moms printed out, um, Facebook posts that I had made and gave them to my parents and were like, "Your daughter's being promiscuous on Facebook," when it was just, like, a picture of me in class with my friend, um- [00:11:00] And it just made me always feel like I couldn't do good enough.
Like, I was always the bad kid, even though I was doing all of the right things. Um, another big part of my story was that I didn't strictly date Mormon boys. So when I turned 16, I was doing the thing where I dated someone and then dated somebody else and then dated that person again so that I wasn't singling off with one person.
I was being very chaste and very responsible in those relationships the way the church had taught me. But then I started dating a non-Mormon boy, and it seemed like as soon as I did that, um, my virginity came into question, my chastity came into que- question, and there was a lot of speculation around it.
Um, and, and quite honestly from my parents too. Um, that just made me feel like even though I'm doing the right things, I'm still feeling like the bad kid all the time, and, and that really put me in a spot where it wasn't [00:12:00] working for me, and then I started questioning things. So the year that I was a senior in high school was the 2014 to tw- uh, 2015 school year, and we were studying D&C, and that's also where the church published, um, the rock in the hat and started talking about the translation of the Book of Mormon, and that really rocked my world.
At the same time, I started dating someone who wasn't white, and that became a problem to some Mormons, and I had to, like, pull up the page that showed that the church actually rolled back, um, the ruling that um, interracial couples couldn't get sealed in the temple, and they changed that in 1994. But then I knew that up until 1994, I wouldn't have been able to be sealed to the temple to someone who wasn't also white, and that really rocked my world.
And then also, I had some inklings that my siblings weren't straight, and I also had some friends that weren't straight. [00:13:00] And I was starting to question the proclamation to the world and the church's stance on the gay community. And all of this really... You know, they talk about it adding to your shelf, and it, it did break my shelf, and I decided to step away.
And I was the first child in my family and on one side of my family, like the first cousin to really, uh, openly step away from the church. So not dismissively like be like, "Oh, I'm gonna go back to the temple eventually," or anything like that. I said, "I'm not going to be in the church anymore." And it was so scary.
I thought I was gonna lose my whole family. I thought that nobody was gonna love me anymore except me. And I also really struggled with feeling like my family was never gonna love me for me. They were always gonna love the potential of who I could be in the church, and that I was always gonna be ministered to when I was with them.
And- Mm-hmm ... my mom and I's story is not perfect. Um, we fought a lot [00:14:00] those first years of... Well, the years- Mm-hmm ... of me in high school where I was rebelling and where I was also mad at my parents for questioning who I was so much and questioning things like if I was following the rules that I was actively following or, you know, making things worse when I wasn't following them.
Um- Through that time we had a lot of turmoil, but also when I stepped away there was a lot of turmoil. Um, so Mom, do you wanna talk a little bit about how that felt on your end? Yeah, yeah. That was just really, um... I mean, when my kids started leaving the church, it, it just felt like my entire foundation crumbled, right?
Because I, because, because as a Mormon mom, I felt like it was my fault, right? Like, what didn't I do right? And what, what, what had we missed? Was it that family home evening that we'd missed? Was it that [00:15:00] we hadn't said script- or said prayers and scriptures and, and, uh, that we hadn't been strict enough?
Which definitely wasn't true, because we were, we were pretty strict. Um, and it, it was just... Like I, you know, like I s- had said, it had worked for me so well for all of my life, to have it not work for my kids was just completely cracked my foundation and I couldn't... And, um, and it just, it really broke me for a while.
Like, I w- I had some pretty serious depression over it and some pretty, um, some difficult years there as, um, especially as my oldest three were leaving. Um, and so I think, I mean, I went... This is when other people's stories really came, became important, right? Because, because up until this point in my life, it had always [00:16:00] been kind of, um Like, my feeling has, had always just been if you live the gospel, your life will turn out the way it's supposed to be, right?
Like, I had just always believed that. And so when other people had problems, it wasn't... Like, I wouldn't have said I was judgmental of them or anything like that, but it would've been, I would, I would have felt like if you would just live the gospel, you wouldn't have those problems. And then when we had tried so hard and worked so hard, uh, to do all of those things right, and it wasn't working anymore, it, it just opened my eyes so much to, to all of these people that were trying so hard, and it just wasn't working for them, you know?
And I could really, like, it- I could empathize and, and, and felt so sorry [00:17:00] for all of these people that I had... I mean, I wouldn't, like I said, I wouldn't have said I was judging them, but I was definitely judging them, you know? And so that became a thing where I just really started looking at people's stories more.
And, um, and also I started, I A, a little ways into this, this journey, I found a life coach. I started, um, talking to Jodie Moore. And she w- do you know who Jodie Moore is? I, yeah. That's great. Um, she was just barely getting started at the time. Yeah. And she became my life coach, and she taught me so much about how our, how our stories work, how, you know, things don't actually have meaning until we give them meaning, and then, and th- that's, like, where our agency comes in, is the, the meaning that we give to things.
And all my life, I had just been accepting the meanings that had been [00:18:00] handed to me, right? That I had, uh, been accepted the, accepting everything that the church said because the church was true, and we had a living prophet, and, you know, and accepting everything that, that was in the church was good, and everything that was outside of the church was maybe not bad, but a little bit suspicious, right?
And so, um, and so she helped me so much, a- and, and as I was listening to these other people's stories and their other experiences, um, just my eyes started to be, to be open to ways that I didn't believe everything that I had always been taught, and ways that some of these things were just cultural, and some, and ways that some of these things were not, were not actually even things that the church taught, but things that we had kind of picked up and, and [00:19:00] interpreted amongst ourselves at church, do you know?
Because people a lot of times say, like, "The, the church taught me." Well, the church is just, is just a clong- conglomeration of people, right? And, um, and we pass these stories from one to another until they become, become part of our collective group think. But, um, but a lot of those things aren't actually really doctrine at all.
And so, and even some of the things that, that are and have been doctrine, we, you know, like the, the, sorry, the, um, the priesthood ban was absolutely claimed as doctrine, and that changed, right? And so, um, it just really Um, my testimony kind of dissolved at [00:20:00] that point, right? It really crumbled, and I was just having really a hard time because there are so many things in the church that I really loved, that I really valued, um, that I really wanted to keep as a part of my life.
Um, and so I, I kind of had to sift and sort through those things. And Kimberly helped me a lot through that time because she was, she was helping me, like, see some of these things that... Because I could see what a deeply moral person she was, particularly, um, you know, once we get- got through the teenage phase and stuff, um, there was a time, 'cause she went to Disney World and did a internship in, uh, in Florida at Disney World for a while, and I remember going to, going and visiting her there and, um, we just had a really long talk about some decisions that she [00:21:00] was making, and I could see what she was saying was, was true and good, and she was trying to be a good person and make good, solid decisions.
And that, you know, and just watching her and some of my other kids leave the church and ma- and still really try hard to be good people was really, um, just shifted my mind and changed my mind a lot there, so... I think one of the- Sorry ... big things for us was when I left the church, one of the things I told her was, "I'm leaving the church because it doesn't match my morals."
I'm trying to build certain values for myself, one of those values being love one another and accept people for who God made them to be, and the church wasn't helping me reach that potential in, in my opinion. And I think that her being able to see that I was really trying to be a [00:22:00] person with strong values, and that is why I was leaving the church as opposed to somebody who just wanted to sin and go to the great and spacious building, then she was able to more understand me and see me for who I was and accept my decision.
Yeah, that was really important. Um, because, because I remember you saying that, that, that I could see that it just was not a position of integrity for you, that you had-- you felt like you were supposed to stand for truth and righteousness and that that meant that you c- you had to tell your gay friends that they were doing wrong.
Which I don't think is actually true. I don't think that the teach- that, that that's what... I don't think that that's true doctrine. But that that was how you felt in high school, was that the church was encouraging you to, you know, make sure people that knew that this is, this way of life was wrong. [00:23:00] So. So where we are now is we have a relationship that's built on some values and principles that we've come to together, um, kind of learning them on our own, but then also discussing them with one another so that we can have a relationship from both sides of the faith divide.
Yeah. And that's, that's kind of our tagline on our, on our, um, podcast, is that we call it Reconstructing Your Family After They Deconstructed Their Faith, and having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. So. So yeah, one of the first-- Oh, did you wanna say something? Sorry.
Go ahead, just keep talking. Okay. But if you wanna jump in at any point- I'll share some comments later ... just give us a sign. Okay. Um, one of the things- No, keep sharing ... that I really learned from, from Jodie Moore, um, and I-- Kimberly kind of learned this on her own, and I don't know how, because she didn't learn it from me.
But, um, how to [00:24:00] just take responsibility for your own emotional maturity, um, to take care of your own emotional needs. Because, um- Because in the church, I think we're kind of taught that we need to be taking care of each other, and that means that we, we shouldn't take care of our, ourselves. And so as moms in the church, sometimes we get really resentful that people aren't taking care of us the way that we, you know, aren't taking...
And it's not like we're being selfish. Like, these are actual needs that we have emotionally to need to be seen and to be valued and to be accepted and to be appreciated. And, um, and I learned, you know, through life coaching, um, how, how to appreciate my- to give myself that kind of val- validation. And so then I wasn't constantly coming to a relationship with like, [00:25:00] "I need you to tell me I'm a good mom," right?
I think that that's something that a lot of parents in and out of the church do is sometimes when you criticize them, they say, "Well, I must be the worst mom," or, "I must be the worst dad." Yeah. And I think that it really helped when you stopped doing that and were able to fill your own needs enough that when we did have criticisms or we did have hurts that we needed to discuss with you, you could hear them, and you could actually repair with us.
Yeah. And then, you know, part of that was taking ownership for mistakes that I made, like things that I did that were hurtful. Um, but it's hard to take responsibility for that until you realize, "Okay, I'm, I'm a good person that did some bad things," right? When... Because a lot of times we think we just need to be...
We're just trying to prove that we were a good person, so that's why, I think that that's why moms say that. Like, "I must have just been a terrible mom," because it's like, [00:26:00] "Okay, look at me. Like, I did some good things, too." Mm-hmm. But I think to, like Kimberly said before, um, and maybe you'll agree with me, I don't know, but that, that when I can take responsibility for my mistakes and not come to her just needing her to always to tell me that I'm a good mom, then it's easier for her to see the things that I did.
You know, once she, once her hurts are seen, then it's easier for her to, um- Appreciate you and see you- Yeah ... as a good mom. Yeah. I think that that's what's important in relationship building is I think that each person wants to feel their thing is heard, right? Your thing being, "I really tried really hard to be a good mom, and I promise I cared about being a good mom to you," and my thing being, "This thing that you did really hurt me.
It really affected my life, and I need to have resolution to it," and those two [00:27:00] things can't exist at the same time. You have to give what space to one before the other can come in. And my parents were- Mm-hmm ... wonderful parents in a lot of ways, and it's so much easier when we can discuss the mistakes to be able to focus on all of the good that existed.
Yeah. And I appreciate that, too. Um, so then the second one, I... kind of goes along with that, but that we, we try to create emotional safety for each other, right? If you can get to a place where, where you're meeting your own emotional needs. You know, none of us can meet all of our own emotional needs, and it's good that we can take care of each other.
Um, but, but, you know, about 70, 80% of the time, if you can take care of yourself. Like, I like to think about it like feeding each other because when you have children, you don't expect them to feed you, right? When you have a baby, you just [00:28:00] expect them, you expect that you're going to have to take care of all of their needs for food.
And then as they grow, then they, they, they can kind of start feeding themselves. And then as they get a little older, then they can, you know, make themselves a grilled cheese sandwich and make you a grilled cheese sandwich, too, right? And we can share that. But, but it's a very long time before your children are able to, um- to buy their own food, cook their own food, and, and meet their own needs.
And so if we're expecting them to, to do that for us, you know, before they're able to do that, we need to make it-- we need to make sure that we're taking care of their needs. We need to make sure, make sure that we're, we're meeting those, um, that we're feeding them. And yeah, like, and I love that metaphor too because, like, even when we are completely capable of taking care of ourselves, it's still nice to go to, you know, like, to [00:29:00] go to lunch together.
Like, I'd love to... Kimberly lives on the other side of the world, but well, on the other side of the country, but I wish I could take her to lunch more often. But, but it's still nice to meet each other's needs in that way too, and we still do that, so. I think really what it is, is leaving room for each other to not be perfect, and I think that that has grown our relationship and our understanding of one another.
For example, um, my mom was struggling at one point to understand, uh, the trans community, and at that point I felt like I had more of an understanding and appreciation and was more involved with trans people. And she came to me with some of the things that she was thinking and some of the things that she had heard, and we discussed it a little bit, and I said, "Well, do you know any trans people?"
And she didn't at that time, and I suggested, "Why don't you follow some trans people on social media?" And I think that [00:30:00] as you get to know someone and understand what they're actually like, then you can be able to see that community as valid, and you can see who the people are behind the identity and understand that identity better.
Mm-hmm. And I think that if we had been in a position where we couldn't speak about that or if we were constantly at odds about that or if I judged her when she came to me for not being at the spot that I was with understanding that, that we wouldn't have been able to grow in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's, that's the next one that we had on the list was, um, humility and, and like understanding just being willing to see where you might be wrong.
Um- Actually, that wasn't the next one. The next one that we had was trusting the good in each other, but I think we've talked quite a bit about that. Mm-hmm. Um, that just, just being willing to see all of the good that, that the other person [00:31:00] does. Um, you know, because there's good in everybody. There, there really is.
We're all trying to be good people and trying to, to do what's right. And if we're in a season of our life that we're not trying to do that, it's probably because there's a lot of hurt and, um, anger and pain going on. Um, and, you know, to try to see the, the, the good underneath all of that But yeah, um, like being able to recognize that you might be wrong.
Like, we all think we're right all of the time. And, and a lot of the time we're... Like, it's easy to see when other people are wrong, but it's really hard to see when you are wrong yourself. And so I think that's been, um, important. Yeah. And the last thing that we really value and that we have focused on is intentionality, which is that we both come to this [00:32:00] relationship knowing that we want to have this relationship- Mm-hmm
and that we want to create a good family dynamic together. Yeah. And I think that our constant, um, want for that and our constant recommitment to that makes it that even now when we have arguments or we have difficult times or we have points where we feel like we just really can't find an agreement, um, we give each other the space and grace, and we give ourselves the patience to come back to that commitment and find a way through.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of that int-intentionality too is just, um, to enjoy each other's company, right? And, and s- particularly in ca- in times where, where we're not having, where we're disagreeing on a lot of things, right? It's important to, to still plan things together and still try to connect with each other on, on a level, whatever level that can [00:33:00] be.
Um, even if it's just, you know, just having fun together, just playing a board game or whatever, but trying to, um, trying to continue to keep that connection and continue to be in relationship with each other while you figure the rest of it out. Something that works really well for us, because we're all spread out, I'm in New York, I have siblings in Arizona and Idaho, all over, um, we do a family Zoom call every Sunday night.
It's at the same time every Sunday. We've been doing it for almost a decade now, and it's just a good spot to say, "Hey, we're gonna consistently do this. Show up or don't, depending on how you're feeling that day, and we'll just try to chat and have a good time together," um, so we don't forget about one another and forget what we like about one another.
Yeah. Yeah. I wish I could have everybody over for dinner on Sunday nights, but this is kind of the next best thing. Until [00:34:00] teleportation exists. Yes, and I really look forward to that. But, but yeah, so that's kind of our story. We talked a lot.
People wanna hear you talk and so thank you. You know, I wrote down some things, listeners, maybe you wrote down some things. I sometimes start with the beginning, but I'm gonna start with the end, 'cause these five things I thought were just terrific principles. Take responsibility for your own stuff.
Number two, create emotional safety. Number three, trust the good in each other. Number four, humility. And number five, intentionality And those are just awesome principles to keep the family circle together and, and, and the way you role model that. So that's the power of your stories. You're not just telling us what [00:35:00] might work, you're showing how this works in real life in the Bates family.
And then this Zoom call on Sunday night that seems not to be required. No one's keeping score. I love the way you framed it, if you can. And, um, but you probably know, you probably a- care about everybody equally, even if everybody can't join. I just love that. And, um, there's just so many nuggets. And I'll go back to kind of the beginning.
Um, my-- as Kimberly was sharing her story in high school, I just got really tender-hearted for you, Kimberly. And even though I'm-- I can't apologize for your ward or for the church, I just, just as a friend in Salt Lake City, I'm sorry for everything that happened to you in high school. You're a good person doing the best you could.
You didn't do anything wrong in any of these things, and you got judged by our culture for not fitting in this really kind of narrow box sometimes. And your, you know, your attributes and [00:36:00] your gifts were broader than that box, um, including interracial dating, which is totally cool with the church. Um, but you're in a culture where, you know, people are gonna raise their eyebrows or point to something that somebody said.
And you seem very informed when you said it was all rolled back in nineteen ninety-four. So you sound like someone who's done a lot of homework to understand where the church is on a lot of these issues. Um, so I'm just sorry for, you know, that cultural not fitting in and judgment that you felt. And, and there's probably-- I wouldn't just say you left the church over cultural issues.
I think you left the church partly over doctrinal issues. And I validate that too, on where, you know, really good people are not comfortable with some parts of our doctrine, especially around LGBTQ, where we were with Blacks in the priesthood, where we are or were with women. So there's really valid reasons le- people leave the church, really good people.
And I couldn't talk like that ten [00:37:00] years ago if I hadn't walked this road with my children. I've been through a faith journey, but still stay in the church. But I can certainly relate to the journey you've w- both walked. And, um, I love that you just said, "My values didn't align with the church." That's kind of jarring for us as church members that somebody could come to that conclusion.
But it's the reality for really good people at times, and I just acknowledge that and So, you know, I just, I'm sorry for all that backlash you got, and I love the way you've made your life forward and, and are, um, living your life based on your values and doing really good things- Thank you so much ... as we talked professionally and with people before we record.
And I do just wanna add, you know, while it doesn't make it okay- You, you have a good soul, Kimberly ... the judgment that happens, I also h- have so many people from my ward that were just wonderful and still are in my heart today. Like, the church does have really wonderful people as well
Good soul, and sometime, [00:38:00] you know... Well, I'll come back to that concept. Then Kari, you were super brave with just being... broke me for a while. Um, three children left the church kind of maybe at the same time or in a short period of time, and just holy cow, this is like, you know, for our family, especially for my wife, I don't know if it's harder on women in general than men or it was a little bit more in our family.
My wife maybe had spent more time with the kids growing up, or her self-worth might have been tied a little bit more into the kids' outcome. That can be different, you know, in each family. But my wife and really good people feel the same way you do, and I felt a lot of this too, is just holy cow, either what did we do wrong?
Um, or, you know, what's happening here? And we didn't have a lot of answers in our faith community. There's not a lot of support for that. There's kind of, we're a little more silent. We can't... If you have a broken arm or working [00:39:00] through a health issue, you can really turn to your faith community. But some of this you're processing completely silently.
I love that you found Jodie Moore and all these resources. Um, talk about your testimony crumbling. If, if- Yeah ... listeners are sort of in this, 'cause I think you're in the church, talk about sort of that journey of like my- Yeah ... testimony crumbled, but I'm still in the church- Um- ... for those that are trying to still- I-
make the church work. I think that I had to give up the idea of infallibility and the idea of, um- Like the church having all of the truth, all that it was this complete package of this is, you know, specific, um, instructions to live your life, and if you live your life this way, it will be perfect. Like I've-- I really think that we have this idea that the church is a cheat code.
At least I did for sure, that [00:40:00] if you do these things that you won't ever have, have hard things happen to you, and your family will look this certain way, and your, um, you know, your posterity will all stay in the church. And, um, and, you know, that just became very clearly not true in my life, right? That... And, and the first part of that was just, well, then I've done it wrong, right?
Like somewhere... And, you know, in the church, it's easy to find something that you've done wrong, right? Because there's so many things to do right. And so, you know, was it that I didn't do my d- genealogy? Did we not go to the temple enough? All of those kinds of things. And then I think when I started to understand that and look at it like we really, really did try hard.
I mean, we certainly weren't perfect, but, but, uh, [00:41:00] it was absolutely our priority to, to make sure that we stayed in the church and stayed a part of and did all of the things. Um, yeah. And so that, that just kind of went away for me. And, and now there's, there are some really beautiful... My testimony is more based on like really beautiful things that I want to believe.
I want to believe in eternal families. I want to believe in a heavenly father and mother that love us. I, um, I want to believe in a savior who suffers with us when we suffer, um, because of the love that he feels for us. And so-- And I want to believe that Heavenly Father communicates with us, that, that he tries to communicate with us through the Spirit and, and through prophets, even when prophets make terrible mistakes, um, as we see [00:42:00] in all of the scriptures and in, and in our, in our modern-day prophets in the past.
Um, and so I've just had to really open space for that, for that fallibility and for the idea that we're just kind of good people stumbling towards, um, the truth, stumbling towards our, trying to figure out what our Heavenly Father's will is and to do it, so
It's great. Oh. I've got the mowers- Yeah ... mowing the neighbor's yard, listeners, so if you hear mowers in the background. Of course. They come once a week, and I swear it's always during a podcast. That was a great answer, Kari, and, um, I just appreciate your vulnerability and- Yeah ... some of our listeners call that deconstruction and kind of reconstruction and a way.
And I just think there's a lot of models for those of us that wanna stay in the Church and [00:43:00] really feel called to stay in the Church, and yours is a valid, authentic model of just sort of deconstructing, reconstructing, and you use the word hope a lot instead of know. And there should be no- Yeah ... shame in somebody that says hope, believe versus know.
And just recognize we're all doing the best we can, um, in our individual journeys. So just credit for you just still trying to make the Church work knowing the complexities and having kids, um, out of the Church and- Just that I love the idea of building Zion- So anywhere you wanna add right there ... and I think that this is the work of it, right?
Like, that's, um ... There's a podcaster recently that said something about that, you know, nobody's willing to die for the Church anymore, and I thought, "You know, I can't think of a single doctrine in the Church that I would be willing to die for." But the idea of Zion, the idea of our relationships and taking care of each other, that, that I would be willing to give my life for[00:44:00]
Um, do you-- sometimes I wonder if this whole process is if everybody, every family's kind of growing up in the church, and we're all the same, and everybody stays in the church, and everybody stays kind of in this world. We're a lot the same politically and religiously. I've wondered- Mm-hmm ... then you go through this, what a therapist described to me as the storming period.
You know, three kids leaving the church, um, it's like it's a storming period. It's dealing with the new reality and reconstructing a family relationship like you've so beautifully done. But some sort of say to me, and maybe this is our own family, our whole communication tools have significantly increased.
These last five things you went through, I've wondered if you both feel like, you know, this is painful, but this has actually brought our family to a different place of vulnerability, acceptance of, of just a way that we're actually closer together as a family- [00:45:00] Yeah, I mean- ... even though it's been kind of difficult.
Do either of you want to talk about that? When we were preparing for what we were gonna say, we kind of talked about some of the fights that we had over the years. And including one, I mean, not to air too much, but there was a time that we were preparing for one of my cousin's wedding, and my mom looked at me, and she's like, "I'm just so sad that you will never have a beautiful temple marriage."
And that just hurt so much at the time, and we had this huge, huge fight over it. And it was so painful. Like, there's no way to make that a prettier process. I don't think so. And I would absolutely go through it again to get where we are, and also to build the resilience that we have, because I know that my mom might say an offhand comment to me again, or I might say something to her, or I might say something that hurts her.
But we have the resilience that we love each other enough, and we're going to go back to the basics and understanding one another and giving each other the chance and [00:46:00] expressing the humility to build with love with one another
And forgiving each other Yeah. That is- 'Cause it does, it takes a lot of forgiveness. Yeah. That is something from the church that I do carry and I do love, is just this idea of radical forgiveness, of turn the other cheek, um, to forgive over and over again, just because I think none of us are perfect, and we all try so hard.
Mm. And I think we're all deserving and... of forgiveness, and I think it's necessary for all of us. Yeah. I love that you, a lot of times, will say that everybody deserves the space and grace to grow. Um, and, and I, I appreciate so much that you've given me that space, um, because, 'cause I'm still growing, and I'm still learning, and, um-[00:47:00]
It's okay. The mowers are loud. I've been pressing mute. Here's a- Yeah ... tender question, Kimberly. And- Do you want your mom to leave the church? I really appreciate you asking that because I think when I- Why? ... first left the church, there is a lot of anger when you first leave. I've watched my other siblings who have left go through it, that, that you feel manipulated, you feel anger, you feel like this is a bad organization.
But I think because I've had a decade of being out of the church and being able to view the church through different lenses, I can see where, for me, it didn't help me live to my values the best that I can. But I can see the work that my mom does, and I can see that for her, it's helping her live her values.
I know that it gives her a community where she can serve and where she can be loving and be an example to others. And I know that it gives her renewed, um, faith and renewed, um, hope [00:48:00] f- for life and, and her journey through this life. And I know on top of that, it's just a deeply personal thing for her, and it is something that is close to her heart and always has been, and I don't want to disrespect something so close to her heart.
Um, I think that there is a, a place where, um, I can respect a religion that I disagree with. Like, I'm not going to let it impact my life or dictate what I do. But things as simple as can we have a family prayer or, um, her expressing her faith to me, that doesn't infringe on my life, and it's, it's an honor to be able to respect what she appreciates and loves
Thank you
Thank you. She is awesome.[00:49:00]
And I may have had my mute button on. Sorry, listeners. Oh, we heard you. You may not have heard my last comments. I just said that was awesome, Kimberly. Yeah. Um, you two heard me. Um I'm thinking of my own, our family journey a little bit. Um, my wife spoke at BYU Women's Conference, um, this last spring about this very subject, and she had like 2,000 people in the audience.
And, um, she spoke about being a mom of adult children that have made decisions to leave the church, and she had-- That whole venue was packed. I think I just said 2,000 or 3,000 people were there. But she had two of our kids on the front row. One-- And, you know, four of our kids don't go to church and two do, and she had one that doesn't go to church and one that did go to church on the front row.
And they both just loved her presentation. And one of the things she did that I thought was really remarkable is when one of our sons stepped away from the church, she, [00:50:00] she did go out to lunch with him and just wanted to hear the story of why he left the church. He's a returned missionary, married in the temple.
And I admire her curiosity to do that. Um, we're scared of those conversations. We worry it'll affect our testimony or our shelf, or we'll have to deal with the cognitive dissonance or change our worldview or our story. But I think that's part of preserving the relationship. And this son of ours, um, was so glad to be there, um, to hear his mom talking about supporting kids that have left the church, and he was not triggered by her comments.
She went to each of our kids and asked what she could share from them. Um, so she created this boundaries that you've talked about as, you know, "What's, what can I share at BYU Women's Conference about your story? What would you like them to know? Is it okay if I talk anything about you?" And, and she went more in their home.
And so she's just done a really good job of, of [00:51:00] just like you are, Kari, of, you know, focusing on the common values. Our job is to preserve the relationship. We can't control the outcome. Um, and she's stayed a very-- she is a very traditional believing member. I'm more nuanced. I've always been a little more nuanced.
As you may know, listeners, when I was dating my wife in the late '80s at BYU, I had this big secret I had to tell her, and, um, that I am not politically- ... I'm politically left center, and, uh, she is not. And we've-- And, um, that hasn't changed in our marriage. We are in a mixed, um, political marriage, and at this point, we don't wanna change each other.
We think it's a strength of our marriage, and we're not trying to keep score of which kid ends up more like dad or, or more like mom. We've learned to turn off cable news because most of that is fear-based, fear-mongering about the other side, but we stay very informed on political issues through fact-based sources that aren't [00:52:00] demonizing the other side.
And so much of that political world is like that. So we-- If my wife woke up one morning and said she thought like me politically, I think I'd be disappointed Um, and so we've tried to model... Uh, I've loved the idea that Zion is not sameness anymore. This goes back to what Kari's talking about Zion. I grew up-- And this word is in your outline.
Idyllic. Idyllic. How do you say that word, Kari? Ide- ideal? Yeah. I can't say it. Yes, you knew it. Idyllic. I can never say that word. I grew up in a, in a world that we're all the same and that idyllic, um, 19... late '70s and '80s in Salt Lake City, and I thought Zion was sameness. Everybody I knew was straight. No women worked.
We all live in the same rambler-type houses. There were only white people around or I-- probably everybody was conservative. I was starting to become a [00:53:00] closeted non-conservative in those days. But Zion to me is what is going on in the Bates family. It's unity and purpose, and it's unity and values, and it's not sameness, and it's beautiful And it's a beautiful family love story that the two of you are role modeling in your podcast.
And I talk about Apollo 13 a lot at times on this podcast, where that's the, the episode, that's the mission that didn't make it to the moon, which represents, you know, kids leaving the church, and you have plan B. You're just trying to pres-- you know, save the, the astronauts. That's a bigger purpose than getting to the moon.
Let's get these astronauts back to Earth alive, and things are going sideways. And Gene Kranz, that, that mission commander in Houston, as they're coming through the atmosphere, he says, in the moment of most despair, he says, "This is gonna be our finest hour." And I love that. And this, in some ways, is the Bates's family's most difficult hour, but [00:54:00] it's the finest hour.
And I feel that about the Ostler family, as we've m- walked this road with having adult children leave the church, and it's been jarring, but it's been perhaps some of the most painful time. But I think it's, especially with my wife, I think it's been our finest hour. Um, one of the things I think about on this subject is what could the church do to take away some of this pain?
Should we start talking about, you know, "Dear parents, you know, it's likely statistically that as your kids age up, some of them are gonna leave the church." Yeah. Um, w- this is how you should feel. You shouldn't feel like you've failed or you shouldn't... It's just part of agency. Our theology a- actually allows space for Kimberly to choose the path she feels r- is right for her, and us to sort of support that and say we're gonna leave this at the feet of our heavenly parents and our Savior, and our theology, you know, [00:55:00] allows for progression and, uh...
So I'm not sure. I don't wanna go down too much the theology road. I don't know if either of you have any thoughts on this idea of what could we- Right. I, I don't try to get in the business of telling our church what they should do, but I would love to eliminate the pain so that parents and our culture are better prepared for this and sort of accept this as a real possibility, and it's not a failure for a family.
And I don't think talking- Yeah ... about it causes more people like Kimberly to leave the church. I just think it helps the family stay together as there's more institutional support for this. So I don't know if either of
you wanna address that. I'm gonna chime in and say that the first thing that I would like to see is not blaming parents when their kids leave their church. Um, I'm a very independent person. I made this choice independently, and it's not a reflection of my parents being too strict or not strict enough or not having the right things to say.
They're lovely people who are devoted to their church, and I get defensive sometimes and get worried that they are looked down on in their own [00:56:00] community because their kids have left. Thank you. That's really kind. Um, I think, um, for me, I, I think what's interesting is that I feel like it's such a loss to the church, right?
Like, I really... The people that we're lo- losing, uh, you know, we, we just did a podcast where for our last two of the season, we're ta- ch- I'm trying to talk her into coming back to the church, and she's trying to talk me into leaving the church. Um, but I, I just feel like it's such a loss to our community to if, if people think bigger and differently and, and we push them out.
Um, that to me is, is... But-- And I think that it is changing. I really do. I don't think that the church is the same church that Kimberly left, really. I think that there's a lot more [00:57:00] openness. Um, but I think we still have a ways to go of just recognizing that, you know what? This work isn't done until all of God's children are, are home and safe and part, and s- and part of their family, part of our heavenly parents' family.
And, um, and if that's what we believe this is, you know, um, I had a quote written down from you that was something along the lines of that we are called to be gatherers, not sifters, right? That this, you know, that Heavenly Father's work is going, is with all of his children, whether they're in this church or in a different church or in no church at all.
Like, the God that I have to believe in loves every one of his children and will never be content until every one of his children have, have met their potential, [00:58:00] whatever that ends up being, you know? So
Really good stuff. And, um, one of the-- as I've listened to stories of people who left the church, Kimberly's age roughly, and they wish... And you don't need this advice, Kari, but perhaps a listener does, is, is learn to see people not if they're in or out of the church, but what they're doing in their life. So We haven't talked about Kimberly's career online, but we spent a bit of time talking- Thank you
before we went li- live, and you have this incredible career in this- Thank you ... exciting city of New York. You come from a small town in Idaho and Nevada. They too. In the East Coast they say Nevada and Nevada, or they s- always mispronounce it. They too. But you've come from, you know, and what you're doing here in the big city of Manhattan in a big, huge company in a s- really important HR job, and [00:59:00] that's just an incredible accomplishment.
I don't know what it's like to get off the plane in New York and wonder, "Do I belong here? Can I make it here?" Um, I don't know how scared you were, but now look at what you've done and the accomplishment. And so I think we've tried to really see our kids, not if they're in or out of the church. Um, that's part of their story.
That's true. I'm not dismissing that or putting my head in the sand. But we're really trying to see our kids for what they're accomplishing in their lives, the good people that they are. Um, and some of our kids struggle that are in the church, and some of our kids struggle that are out of the church, but we're not trying to link that to being in the church or not being in the church as much.
It's just part of the mortal experience, and so we don't look at our kids out of the church that struggle and might open up to us and say, "Well, you know, maybe your mental health would be better if you stayed in the church," or, "Maybe your financial situation would stay better in the church." It'd be easy to say, say that, and you two would never do that, [01:00:00] or maybe you did that at the beginning.
But it's sort of what I would call spiritual manipulation, and it's transactional relationship. And, um, just, uh, we're trying to just love people because they deserve to be loved, not because our love will bring them back to the church, but because they're children of heavenly parents, and they're etern- and they're just, their identity, we believe in the theology of our church, is divine in nature and incredible people, and they deserve to be loved.
Our heavenly parents love them, and we can model that. I also believe our-- nothing we can do can take us outside of God's love. Um, so I think we should role model that as parents, that our love is not conditional or not transactional. Now, if there's abuse there, if there's-- or, you know, there's situations where a kid will get into drugs and alcohol, and he's stealing from the house and impacting the, the survi- the possibility for other kids.
So there's boundaries you have to develop at some point as parents if you get [01:01:00] in really tough situations like that. But obviously Kimberly's not needing drugs and stealing from the home and, um, breaking down the house and stuff like that. So Just more thoughts that come to your mind in a closing segment or two.
Anything else you'd love to share No, I, I really appreciate what you said because that's what is most important to me with my relationship with my parents is that they love me and see me for who I am and not for my potential within the church. Um, I think that my mom always, like
you said, talks to my accomplishments and not, doesn't talk to the sadness of me leaving the church when she's asked about me, and that really helps our relationship. It's just exhausting to be sad all the time that you left the church. Like I, I feel like I did that for a while and it's just... It's just not fun to be miserable forever and there's no reason for it, right?
Because you're amazing and
it's fun to, to watch the life [01:02:00] that you're living even if it's a different life than, than I've lived. So. That's great. And my mic may have been off for the recording. You two heard what I said, but I, I... If it went pause, I just said, "Let's see people for what they're accomplishing. Let's don't make our love transactional, that, you know, I'll love you, and let's just love people for who they are."
Um, and if people out of the church get in a tough spot, let's not think that that's because they left the church, or this is our, sort of our card to get them back in the church by playing up a tough financial situation or a mental health issue or something that's gone wrong in their life. People- So true
have tough experiences in the church and out of the church, and let's don't... That's what I would call spiritual manipulation. Let's just love people where they are and let them self-determine their best path forward. Uh, my friend Calvin Burke, a gay Latter-day Saint, is the one who coined that term for me.
Um, we're called to be gatherers or sifters, [01:03:00] so, um, I love that you referenced that. I wanna give Calvin a shout-out. And one of the other things I've read recently is that about 50% of young wom- of women of, are leaving the church. Um, and I, I'm interested in data. I think it's our friend to help us understand what we need to address, and sometimes that data we wanna dismiss or we want to...
I read a, an editorial in one of the local papers that said, "Well, that's just sec- the church- the world is just getting secular, so of course people would leave our church." And I don't disagree with that, but it, it sort of prevents us from looking inward and saying, "What can we do better?" It's not just secular.
It's sort of like going back to Kimberly's experience. You know, what, you know, what could we do better? I love, I love looking inward and just saying, "What are our unforced errors," to use the tennis term, or, "What can we do, especially, um, to improve [01:04:00] the culture," which is something more in our control as rank-and-file members.
And I'm certainly open to policy or doctrinal changes that improve the experience for others. So I think data's our friend, and I think sometimes it's okay to look at the data and just say, "We need to do better, too." It's not just a sign of the last days that people are leaving the church. It's not just...
Sometimes we have these stories where we want everything to fit our existing story, and sometimes it's good to be curious, like Kari's role modeling with Kimberly and Kimberly has done in her own life. And I kept my mute, my mic from being mute. Sorry. So anyway, we're kind of at the end, but anything else either of you like to share?
Can't think of anything. I just- Just come listen to our podcast. Yeah. And I appreciate the work that you're doing and, and that your wife- Yes ... you mentioned was doing and what you're doing in your own family. I think that this is great work to do.[01:05:00]
Thank you, Kimberly. Thank you, Kari. Once again, we'll put, um, Kari Bates's Instagram account. It's Kari Bates- ... Family Coach. You can remember that. It's not too hard to remember. It's just four words stuck together for an Instagram account. Kari, K- K-A-R-I Bates. Mm-hmm. You can spell family coaching. Coach, singular.
We'll put that on our Instagram account so you can DM Kari if you'd like to just connect with her content. You can see her podcast there. Um, and if you want to help just with her help as a life coach, it's something she's willing to do. Um, and we'll link to the podcast, so listen to their episodes. I love that you're just doing this together.
I love that you named it- ... Um, Coffee and Coco. That's kind of ironic and well-named, and I think a little insight into the word of wisdom- Yeah ... where you both are with that. So I just think that's terrific. So Kimberly Bates from New York and Kari Bates from Elko, [01:06:00] Nevada, thank you for joining us, and, um, you two are great.
Just role modeling what Christ- Thank you ... invites us to do, which love our neighbors as ourself. And this is Richard Ostler- Thank you ... signing off on another episode of Listen, Learn, and Love.