Hi, I'm Kari. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Cocoa, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. So do you have a testimony this morning? My testimony this week is on the song Silver Jubilee by Audrey Hobart.
Have you heard it? I haven't. I'm gonna send it to you to listen to. I've probably listened to it multiple times a day for, like, two months now. I'm still not sick of it. I've been running, and it's, like, my first song when I go on a run. It's, like, my pump-up song. I can't get over it. It's just, like, one of those songs that, like, scratches that part in your brain that you're just like, "This makes me feel so happy."
Ooh. I love that. I'm excited to hear it. Yeah, I'll send it to you. It also has a lyric that's like, "I'm gonna tell my sister she's perfect," and then, like, it switches in the last chorus, and it's like, "I'm gonna tell my sister your secret." So every time I listen to it, I think about all of my siblings, honestly, like, not just my sisters, and I'm like, "Oh, I'd love to go party with my siblings."
Like, I love them. Aw. I don't know. It's such a good feel-good song. I love it. All right. Oh, good. Okay, I'm excited to hear it. So my testimony is on Carolyn Pearson. Do you know who Carolyn Pearson is? That sounds familiar. Yeah. Is she an author? She is. She's a poet. And- Oh, right ... um, she passed away about a week and a half ago.
I'm gonna get, like- Oh ... teary over this, but she was just such a beautiful soul and, um, and maybe one of my biggest examples for, like, staying in the Church and making it a better place because she's been really outspoken for women's issues, for queer issues in the Church, but she's also been w- like, always very staunchly Mormon.
Like, "I am a Mormon by culture. I am a Mormon by birth." She's just always made that so important, so, in her life. And anyways, just I'm so heartbroken. Like, by all accounts, she was a very personable person, that she, you know, had lots and lots of friends and really was involved with people. My only personal connection with her was, um, one of my kids bought me a book that was signed by her.
I have one of her, um, books of poetry that was signed by her, but I, I wish that I had known her better. And honestly, I feel like I've lost an older sister or something like that just because- Yeah ... she was just such an influential person from a distance in my life. And yeah, so just a testimony about how amazing she was.
I was gonna share this, this poem, and I, I really have it memorized, but I'm gonna read it to make sure that I ha- because a lot of her poetry has stayed in my head for a long time, but this one is called, um, Of the Mystery. She says, "I, I know only as much of God and the world as a creature with two eyes must, but what I do understand I love, and what I don't understand I trust."
So sorry, I didn't mean to get so weepy over that. Oh. But, um, but yeah, just kind of a, kind of a sad thing that we've lost her and- Mm-hmm ... um, and, and yet also so grateful for the person that she was and the influence that she had in the world, so. Yeah, and the work that she created. Yes. The work that she has left behind.
She actually just- Yeah ... they just barely released her diaries. They're re- um, she released her diaries for publication, and I just got her first one- Oh ... that, um, that I really haven't had haven't had time to sit down with, but, um, that I'm gonna read through, and there's four volumes, so I'm really excited to, to read all of those.
So anyways. Mm-hmm Yeah. That's lovely, and I think that's a lovely poem. Like, it was, it was shorter than I thought it would be, but I like- Yeah, a lot of- It was great ... her poetry was really sho- short. Um, and I have a lot of her poetry that I, that just plays in my head, not that I- Mm-hmm ... meant to memorize it, but it was just that, that, um- It stuck with you.
Yeah, it stuck- Yeah ... with me, so. I love that. Yeah. So last week, I, I tried to talk you into coming back to the church, and this week it's your turn to try to convince me. I'm so worried getting into it because I'm like, "Ugh, that was such a lovely discussion, um, and such a lovely poem, and now I'm gonna talk about-
why you should leave the church," which, like, this is a hard conversation. I'm just gonna start with that. It's like, some of the conversations that we've had as I've left the church have been difficult, but especially since I'm not angry anymore. Like, I think that there was a part when I first left the church where I was really angry, and I also was like, "Oh, leaving the church is so good.
Everyone should do it. Um, life is so much better when you leave the church." And I don't feel that way anymore, so it's- Mm ... it was hard to think about this. It was also hard because I think last week you were very much about why I specifically would- Oh ... benefit from rejoining the church, and mine isn't, isn't framed that way.
It's not about why you specifically should leave the church. It's about why anyone should leave the church. And also, same disclaimer as last week, I, I'm actually very happy for you to explore religion the way that you feel most comfortable and to express your faith in the way that you do, and I have so much trust, um, in you as a person that you do that in a way that is, um, honoring you and your feelings and also honoring what you feel is the right thing to do.
Oh, you said that so much prettier than I said it last week, but- but I do appreciate that because that's the premise of this, this whole thing, is that we've come to a place where we just respect each other's opinion, we s- respect each other as human beings- Mm-hmm ... and w- are not really trying to convince each other that they're, that we're doing it wrong because I don't think you're doing it wrong.
I think you're doing- No ... it very right. And also, in our day-to-day conversation, I have no desire to put down what you believe, and I do think that some of this is gonna come off as putting down what you believe, and, and it's hard because I do feel these things, but I also feel like I could also be wrong and that we're all just trying to understand things the best that we can.
And so I hope that none of this comes across offensively. Yeah. 'Cause religion is also very precious and is also a place where you could take offense, and- Sure ... I feel really nervous. I'm still not getting into what I'm gonna say because I'm so nervous. And I feel kinda bad 'cause this was my, my idea, right?
I hope I- Yeah ... didn't just, like, pressure you into dealing with this stuff again. No, it's okay. I just, I guess I have no interest anymore in fighting with this church head-on. Like, and I just am going to say- Mm-hmm ... some things that are head-on statements, but, but I do, through you, see how people can find value in the church, and I'm not actually that interested in people leaving for these reasons.
But I do think that it is worth kind of um, talking it out- Mm-hmm ... and just kind of modeling how these conversations can go. Yeah. But I do just wanna say above all else, I love you and respect your choices. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I hope that that came across last week as well. Yeah, I do. But I think because you were making it so personal to me- Mm-hmm
it wasn't, it fit into the choices that I've made and what I'm seeking. Mm-hmm. And this isn't quite the same. But I'll- That's okay ... I'll get into it. Um, so- Okay ... I tried to break it down too so that it was more digestible. Also, all of these things I think we could do entire episodes on, so I'm not gonna spend that much time talking about each thing or coming up with every argument for or against these things.
I'm just going to state them. We can talk about them briefly. Okay. But my first reason is because the church isn't true. Um, my second reason is because the church leads people astray or has bad leadership in general. And the third reason is because the church isn't necessary to meet your goals. Okay. So the first one's gonna read a little bit like the CES letter or a Letter to My Wife, if you've read either of those.
Have you read those? Um, I have. I, I don't think I've read a Letter to My Wife. I've read parts of it, but I did finally, really it was probably about a year ago, read the CES letter just because I'm like, "This is dumb that I've never read this." And- Mm-hmm ... like, by that point, there were no surprises in it, right?
Like, I knew everything. Yeah. I had studied everything that was in the CES letter. But- Mm-hmm ... but yeah, so I have read that. And I've also read, like, what is it, the FairMormon response to it. Yes. And then the response to the FairMormon response. Yeah. So there's been a lot... Like, I don't think I'm gonna say anything novel here, but for me, the biggest reason to leave the church is I don't think that it's true.
I don't think that it's real or unique in its message. Um, first of all, I don't think that the Book of Mormon is real, and I think that that is central to if you're going to be LDS, because prophets have said that it is the keystone of the religion. Elder Holland said in 1995, "Everything in the church, everything rises on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and by implication, the prophet Joseph Smith's account of how it came forth."
Um, and I think that both of those things are false. Um, and I think that we know that they're false. We know that the Book of Mormon wasn't translated, um, even the way that, like, I was raised it was translated. We know now that it was translated by a rock and a hat, allegedly. But the Book of Mormon itself has no archeological evidence, and actually, there's archeological evidence against it.
Um, we know that Native Americans aren't descendants of Jews. We also know that Joseph Smith was a famous treasure hunter before he found the Book of Mormon, that a lot of the story or mythology around finding the Book of Mormon matches him also finding other things that aren't real or things that we don't believe in.
There's also things in the Book of Mormon about horses when there weren't horses in the Americas, which is where, like, the ex-Mormon tapir, uh, mascot comes from. Oh, that's- Um- I didn't know that was a thing. You didn't know that? No. Um, yeah, like ex-Mormons have gone to church with like, they make like tie pins that are a tapir.
Oh. And like people have been like, "That's really offensive." Um- Oh. 'Cause in the Book of Mormon, there are references to animals that just did not exist in the A- Americas at this time. And one of the apologist things that has come out is that when they said they were riding horses, that's just a mistranslation.
They were riding tapirs, and that's just like hilarious to think of, and also like clearly not true. Um- Mm-hmm ... I think even most Mormons now believe that the church, or that the Book of Mormon and the stories in it are more, uh, metaphorical than real. But like the ex-Mormon Reddit page, their like logo is a tapir.
That's really funny. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. So the content of the Book of Mormon isn't rooted in any fact. Um, but also Joseph Smith himself i- was a liar and did a lot of things that weren't in line with his teachings. Like he, um, translated the Book of A- Abraham and from like ancient Egyptian scripts, and scholars have been able to translate those scripts and shown that it's not the Book of Abraham.
Mm-hmm. He destroyed the Nauvoo Expositor when they were going to publish about his polygamy practices. Um, he practiced polygamy. He also, um, married people who were already married, um, and also married underage girls, um, and used his power in, in ways that were very manipulative. Um, so I don't believe that he was a true prophet.
I think a lot of the things that were part of the church being founded are untrue and we know are untrue. Things like the First Vision, there's three different versions of the First Vision, and they changed over time, even down to if it was God who appeared to him, or God and Jesus who appeared to him, or God and Jesus as separate beings with separate bodies that appeared to him.
Um, also a lot of the church is based in the idea that we have the restored priesthood, but the priesthood restoration is murky. Um, and the accounts were, of the restoration of the priesthood were retrofitted to fit what they believed years later. Mm-hmm. Um, even down to Joseph Smith being given the Melchizedek Priesthood by a different man after he had given him the Melchizedek Priesthood, instead of like angels coming down and giving him the Melchizedek Priesthood.
Mm-hmm. So all of those things kind of point to this not being true. And when the leadership themselves say, "Well, if this isn't true, the whole church isn't true," it kind of leads to the conclusion that the church isn't true. So interesting. I'm trying to think where to start to respond. Like I said, none of that is stuff that I didn't know or is it a surprise or anything like that.
But to me, I think, I think I've kind of given up the idea of it being absolute truth in the way that we would like to The thing is, is that Joseph Smith was deeply flawed, right? He was a human being, and if that means that he wasn't a prophet because he was flawed... Like, I think my idea of what a prophet is has changed a lot because I think that Joseph Smith had some kind of experience.
I don't know what his experience was. Um, he describes it different ways at different times in his life. And, um, as far as, like, the thing that we have paintings of, uh, you know, there's all sorts of art depicting him with God the Father and Jesus Christ standing over him, and that- that's, like, what we like to imagine it as, and it probably wasn't exactly that.
We don't exactly know how... I- I mean, nobody was in that grove with him, but I do believe that he had some sort of ecstatic experience and tried to describe that. I think he probably had a few different ecstatic experiences. I don't know. Also, he, he wasn't the saint that we like to paint him as. He was probably very charismatic and, like, people absolutely loved him.
You know, we have lots and lots of diary entries and testimonials and, you know, people were very, very devoted to him, which doesn't necessarily mean anything either because there are cult leaders today that people are very, very devoted to, very, very willing to die for. That's so important to the cult, yeah.
Yeah. Like, the way I think of the church being true anymore, like, we've talked about this so many different times, that we have to look at the fruits, right? We have to look at the fruits of it, and the fruits of the church are, to be fair, mixed, right? There's some really, really good things that have come from the church, and there are some really not great things that have come from the church.
But that's how I determine now what, what's truth. As far as, like, the quote from President Holland, again, President Holland is a human person, and, like, we like to think that every word that comes from the apostles is straight from the mouth of God, and I just don't think that that's true anymore. Um, I think the Book of Mormon is really interesting because there really isn't a good explanation for how it came to be.
I mean, it was written in a very short period of time. It was written with Joseph Smith looking at a stone in, in a hat. But even that, it's like how did that happen, that he dictated this whole story looking into a hat? Like, what even is... Like, and a lot of these things are lost to history. We can't go back and see exactly what happened.
We have accounts of what people said happened and all of that kind of stuff. But again, as far as, like, the church being true Like, that's how I, I judge truth anymore is by their fruits. But like you said, the fruits are mixed, and I think that it, like Occam's razor, the most simple answer is the answer, which is did Joseph Smith perfectly translate 100 pages that then got lost and then God told him, "Well, they're gonna use this to say that you're not a real prophet, so don't retranslate them"?
Or is the simple answer that he was looking at a rock and a hat and making things up and couldn't make it up perfectly a second time, and so he didn't redo that and said, "God told me not to." Is it that the church isn't true and a broken clock is right twice a day? Like, people who are trying to follow a Christian faith and in a very organized way stumble upon good ways to be, or is it more likely that this tru- church is very true and also sometimes imperfect?
Um, I think both of those things. That probably doesn't make sense. Like, I think that the church is a group of people stumbling towards the light, honestly and truly, that the leaders of the church are good people, that the members of the church are good people. And, like, that's a hard thing to d- to say too, right?
Because are all of the leaders of the church good people? Are... Like, none of us are all good or all bad. But I just think, like, the way that the church is true is that it's a group of people that are trying to understand the will and the mind of God and getting it wrong a lot of the time and also learning things along the way and trying to improve things along the way.
But you can say that about any religion, and that doesn't make this the one true church. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, and I believe that too. I think that, like, as far as, like, the, the only true and living church, I think that we have things that are unique about the church. Um, but I think, you know, that other religions have unique and special missions as well.
I think that, um, you know, the idea of different fingers pointing to the same moon and, like, we're all human beings stumbling towards the light. I don't know. Um, that kind of leads into the next point, which is that the church leads people astray, um, and that it has significant issues with leadership. Um, we already kind of talked about the first prophet, Joseph Smith, and his issues.
Um, but that continues, and the church really encourages us to follow leadership almost unquestionably. Like, there's a Primary song that's like, "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, don't go astray." It's my favorite. Even most recently in a general conference talk called Follow the Prophet: He Knows the Way, um, by Elder Michael John Yuten, um, of the Seventy.
I don't know if I said that right, but- I don't know if you said it right either. He, um, did this conference talk that's tit- titled Follow the Prophet, but a lot of the content of the talk is conflating the prophet with Christ and talking about following Christ's teachings, which to me is separate from prophet's teachings, especially historically.
Mm-hmm. Um, so again, another quote by Wilford R- Woodruff, "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would strike me down." So we have a prophet saying, "If I'm not teaching the truth, I'll literally be struck down."
Mm-hmm. But then we have prophets that are teaching things that later prophets say aren't true, right? So- We talked about Joseph Smith. The next president of the church is Brigham Young, who is a deeply flawed, deeply problematic person, um- Yeah ... who taught the Adam/God theory, which- Mm-hmm ... prophets have said, said is not gospel, is not true.
Um- Yeah ... he taught the blood atonement, Yeah ... which led to a massacre, which presidents of the church since have contradicted. Mm-hmm. Um, we also have early church, other early church teachings like polygamy that like Gordon B. Hinckley actually renounced publicly. Um, but then we also have more recent things that have happened in our life, like Black people not being given the priesthood, which was changed in your lifetime.
Um- Mm-hmm ... interracial couples not being able to be sealed, which has changed as recently as 1994. Um- Mm-hmm ... and also, like, the importance of the order of sealing versus civil marriage, right? Because it used to be that you had to get sealed first and then you could be civilly married or that they had to happen in the same day, and that's- Mm-hmm
not important anymore. And I mean, all of these things, right, people rejoice when they change, but it doesn't change the hurt that occurs before they're changed. And- Yeah ... people follow these things even though they are hurtful because they think that it's important to follow the prophet. Mm-hmm. But then it ends up not being true, so they've done all these hurtful things for nothing.
Even things as simple as not inviting family members to your wedding- Yeah ... because they can't come into the temple, and that's your first wedding because it has to be your first wedding. Yeah. I- there's a lot of heartbreak, and this is one that I struggle with because, um, like I said- I don't have any expectation anymore that prophets do things perfectly, but I do wish that there could be more acknowledgement and more repentance when things are changed and when things have caused harm, right?
Like, that's, that's a really difficult one for me because, you know, like a few years ago, a letter, um, surfaced on the internet that was, like, an apology for the priesthood ban, and it was written as if it had come from the general leadership of the church. And like, the outpouring of gratitude that, you know, people were so appreciative that that had been acknowledged and apologized for was so healing for so many people.
And then it ended up not being true. It ended up being something that somebody else had written as if it had been- Mm-hmm ... from the leadership of the church. And like, I don't understand because President Oaks has come out and said that we don't seek or offer apologies, and like, that just doesn't fit to me with who Christ is or, or who the church should be, right?
Like, Christ was a healer. And, um, you know, as far as like just, again, imperfect people stumbling towards the light, and I will probably use that phrase a, a hundred more times just because that's the easiest way for me to describe it. I don't have any expectation that, that they're perfect, but I do wish that we could acknowledge that this is a process.
It's not a finished product, that we have gotten things wrong. And President Uchtdorf came out and said that we have gotten things wrong, but that's not a regular thing. I wish that we could just, I wish that we could just acknowledge the process of, of figuring things out as we go more. Because I think that people are really willing to forgive when harm is acknowledged, right?
And when, when people are trying to change. I think that, that we're really willing to understand that, okay, you know, nobody gets this perfect. Nobody gets it right all of the time. But the problem comes in when we have this idea that prophets do speak directly for God. Like, I think it's hard for current prophets to say That previous prophets were wrong in what they said, you know?
And I think that that's a pride thing, to be honest. I think it's, I think it's pride in our leadership. I do think it's a pride thing. I think that that's the issue with prophets, is I think that we can sit here all day and say, "Well, they're not perfect people, they're just real men." But they're not saying that.
Yeah. They're saying... I mean, Dallin H. Oaks said it's wrong to criticize leaders of the church even if the criticism is true. Yeah. And he is the current president of the church. He- Mm-hmm ... they are not looking for you to interpret them as human. They're looking for you to interpret- Right ... them as what they say is God's law.
And there's no indicator for current members of the church to see if what the prophets are saying right now is eternal gospel or is just someone speaking as a man. Yeah. And it's not like, except for the example that you gave of, um, Elder Uchtdorf, it's not like they're coming through and saying, "I'm not perfect, but I am trying to be in communion with God, and I am trying to direct and lead as best as I can."
Mm-hmm. They're not saying that. They are saying, "I speak for God. I'm ordained to do this." Right. "You must follow me." And you as an individual can have the idea of taking that a certain way. Mm-hmm. But when you're governing such a large population of people- Yeah ... and mobilizing them, I, I think that that level of pride is very dangerous, and I do think that a lot of time s- people are led astray.
Yeah. Well, even like the Wilford Wood- Woodruff quote, because that's repeated a lot, right? That, that the prophet will never lead you astray. Like, that is a struggle for me, right? But this is the other side of it, because if they were to come out and say, you know, "I'm just a guy trying to seek inspiration just the same way that you guys are trying to seek inspiration," I think, like, the Church as a whole would fall apart, right?
Because I think that people need somebody, especially in, in earlier stages of maturity, people need somebody to stand up and say, "I know the way. Follow me." Right? And so... But they don't, and I, I do think it's the difference between, like, a king and a president, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... either could fall apart, but one is claiming to be ordained of God.
And if not only do you convince others that you're ordained of God, but you in your heart of hearts believe that you are ord- ordained by God, then you are going to make choices that aren't as considerable because you think- I'm being led by God. Yeah. That's another really interesting point to me because I do, I absolutely believe that Dallin Oaks believes that he is the prophet, and so what does that mean?
And so then if he thinks that gay people don't actually exist and that they need, you know, conversion therapy, he thinks that that is a thought from God because he's ordained by God. So how could he have that thought? Yeah. It's, it's an interesting- And that's where like- ... dichotomy ... in the current church, I'm very concerned because I do think that we are moving to a point that in our lifetime we will see temple sealings for, um, homosexual couples.
Mm-hmm. And also I think we will see the rolling back of gender as a divine nature- Mm ... and the rolling back of the proclamation to the world in general. I think that that is just the trend we are moving towards. Mm. And if that day comes, sure, that will be a relief and that will be something to celebrate for plenty of Mormons, but it is not going to take away the hurt that has happened in all of these ti- Yeah
time of these people saying, "God thinks that you are divinely this gender," or, "God thinks that you should be married to a man or married to a woman." Yeah. Or, "We need to defend marriage between man and a woman with musket fire." Yeah. I agree. There is deep pain associated with those things, like I've felt it in my life.
But the, like, the idea that we can live a life without pain, without suffering, like, that's, that's not real either, right? Like, there's not, there's not any kind of source of truth out there that is offering that, that is offering if you live this way, you will never suffer, you will never have any emotional pain.
And that is not, that is not a statement defending any harm that is caused. It's not. Yeah. But I think that you can accept that the world's not perfect and that we're all trying our best and also not sustain prophets and presidents who are being completely harmful. Well, I think completely harmful is not a true statement either, because I think that they do say some things that are true and some things that are helpful and some things that are uplifting.
But I don't think... I guess I agree, not completely. It's not, you know, one or the other extreme. But I do think that it is pretty harmful, and I do think that we don't h- hold them to a high enough standard to give them the respect and the obedience that they are requesting. Yeah. I mean, I can see that because, because for most of my life, I did just kind of believe that God was sitting on the prophet's shoulder and telling him what to say.
Right? Mm-hmm. For a lot of my life, I did, I did believe that. And I think that for me, what changed was seeing mistakes that had been made in the past- Mm-hmm ... and seeing the statements that were, that were made that, that ended up being not true and being harmful, and so then kind of carrying that forward.
And for me, it's with a lot of compassion because like I said, I do believe that President Oaks believes that he's right. Believes that he's being led by God. I do believe that he is trying to do the best that he can to make the world a better place. You know, that's, that's just, like, a lot of responsibility, but I don't think that there's any part of him ever, honestly, that is like, "Mwa-ha-ha, I'm just gonna hurt people for fun."
I don't know. Just for me, it's just, like, a lot of compassion that he's trying to be a good person and making mistakes and he, he's in a very powerful position that he didn't ask to be put in. Um, you know? They're called by the people above them, and then they just kind of rise through the ranks as older people die.
Um, the way you get to become the prophet is by living the longest. So it's not really a position that he asked for. So I don't know. I just feel like we have to have a lot of compassion for the mistakes that he's making and compassion for the pe- for the people that he's hurting, you know? And I wish that there was a way, you know, maybe it would be better if God would come and sit on somebody's shoulder and tell them exactly what to do, but we don't have that.
We don't have it I just think that considering we don't have that, we shouldn't be asked to obey so directly, and the church does ask that. But I think we could talk about that all day, but the last thing that I wanted to talk about in, like, the issues with leadership and why the Mormon Church isn't worth being a part of or following is because there's a large lack of diversity in the leadership.
So it's not just individuals who are making choices that affect everyone, um, and asking everyone to be obedient to. It is also that those choices and those decisions are being thought of by largely old white men. And right now it's a huge deal that the Quorum of the Twelve is so diverse, and it's because not every single one of them is from America, and also because two of them are not white.
And that is extremely d- diverse for the Quorum of the Twelve historically. It is. It is. And that's not even getting into the fact that there are not women in these rooms making decisions. Mm-hmm. That women in the church are asked to be beautiful and brilliant and smart and discerning, but then the church doesn't ask for any of that in their leadership.
They don't ask for that perspective. They don't give women really any room to lead. Um, and they are making decisions for women. Yeah. I mean, I can't argue with that. Like, the church is led by a, by one perspective, and I think it's a problem that we will eventually solve. I think we'll eventually figure it out, but not today.
Yeah. My last one that I wanna talk about is how the church is unnecessary to meet your goals. Mm-hmm. Um, and this is a little more personal, I guess, to you, um, but in general to anyone who's trying to be Christ-like because I think that, um, the church named itself after Christ, right? They're the church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Mm-hmm. And the first name they ever had was the Church of Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. Um, but they kind of put prophets up on a pedestal with Jesus Christ at times. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I don't think that it is necessary, and sometimes I think that being a member of the church is antagonistic to those, um, teachings. I think a lot of the teachings that I associate with being Christ-like or how I wanna live my life or, or how generally, like, I think Christians wanna live their life is, um, being humble, uh, being meek, loving your neighbor, being relentlessly forgiving, um- To feed the, the poor and the needy and to see in the poor and the needy the, the image of God.
And, um, I don't think that the church necessarily has that as its priority. Um- Mm-hmm ... when I look at the leadership of the church and I look what they're teaching in general conference, there's always a conference talk about tithing. And for a church- Mm ... that, you know, we've discussed tithing before, for a church that is worth over $100 billion- Mm-hmm
that just seems so unnecessary. I think that if we're following a Christ-like teaching of making sure that, um, we're taking care of the poor and the needy, I, I think that that means letting members put feeding their children above paying tithing. Mm-hmm. And that's explicitly been stated otherwise in talks in the church.
I also think about when it comes to God's greatest commandment, which is love thy neighbor, um, that the church doesn't allow you to do that to your fullest potential. Mm-hmm. I think that when it's talking about, again, going back to El- Elder Holland's comment about defending, uh, marriage between a man and a woman with musket fire, I don't think that that is showing the most love or the ca- or care for your neighbor.
Or, you know, God even said to love your enemies. Mm-hmm. And if you think of the gay community as your enemy, even in that position, you should be loving towards them. You shouldn't be defending against- Yeah ... them with musket fire. Um- And then there's the whole portion of constantly ministering these beliefs to other people.
I don't think that that is where you meet someone with love. I don't think when someone is grieving a family member, the way to meet them with l- with love is to tell them that they should come to church so that they can get sealed in the temple and make sure that they stay with that family member. Um, and then even when it comes to loving yourself, when it comes to honoring yourself and treating yourself the best, I think that the church can be really harmful.
I think that the way that they have influenced suicide rates in the, um, gay community, especially in the youth- Mm-hmm ... is really harmful. Um, I don't think that it is helping people love themselves or love each other the best. I think the way that it contributes to religious OCD and other things that we've discussed of, like, people feeling so depressed because they feel, like, depressed- Mm-hmm
in the first place, and then feeling like they are depressed because they're not practicing the religion well enough, and then that cycle is really harmful. And I think that compared to other religions, you know, people can have religious OCD in any religion, but I think that because the Mormon Church requires so much from its members- Mm-hmm
it really can feed into that and can be dangerous. Yeah. I think that the hard thing is, is that, like, life is hard. Life is hard- Mm-hmm ... no matter who you are or what you believe. Life is difficult and challenging in a million different ways, and we want the church, like, I always wanted the church to be the answer to all of those things and to be the thing- Mm-hmm
that made everything better, and it's just not, right? Like, and I don't know that anything can be. Like, I think, I mean, as far as my belief system goes, I believe that, that life is intended to be hard because if there's nothing hard, then there's no way to grow. There's no reason to grow and get better and to learn to love better.
And so I don't know. Like, I just don't have any expectation anymore that the church doesn't cause harm, and that's not an excuse for it at all. I think that we need to be a resource to help with, with all of the harm that we can, but I just don't think... Like, the reason that I'm still a member of the church is not because I think that it's perfect at all, or that its leaders are perfect, or that they say the right thing.
The reason that I'm a member of the church is because it's my people and it's my community, and I feel a responsibility, and I feel like I probably have the most influence in this, um, section of humanity. This is where I choose to do the good that I feel like I can do, and I feel like I probably have a bigger influence in the church than I have, like, in the, the entire world, or at, at least in my own ward or, you know, my own, the people around me.
And so this is my people. I don't know. Anyways, I think that you have a lot of really good points, and I think that you have chosen not to be in the church for those reasons, and that you find your circles to do good in. Right? You find your circles- Mm-hmm ... to help marginalized people and to see people as children of, as...
I, I would say children of God. I, I don't know how you would say that- Mm-hmm ... at this point, but, um- But same idea, you know? Yeah. Like, and I think that that's still a very easy shortcut for me to think of things. Yeah. Right? I don't necessarily believe in God the same way I used to, but I do think about, like, it's an easy shortcut to say, "See God in every poor person that you see, or everyone- Yeah
struggling, or every other human you see," um, even though I don't necessarily believe in that. Yeah. Like, it's still, it's still an easier shortcut, I guess. Yeah. Final honorary mention too, leaving the church does give you 10%- ... back of your income, and you can do whatever you want on Sundays- Yeah ... which I personally enjoy.
Yeah. But- That's fair ... those didn't seem like the most important points to make. Yeah. Well, I think that you make a good case. I think that there are a lot of reasons to leave the church, and I think that, to your point, I think that we all need to kind of... I, I'm at, kind of at a point in my life where I'm like, "If you don't know why you're doing it, then you probably haven't examined it well enough," right?
But- Mm-hmm ... but I think that that's just part of being human too, is that we just, sometimes we just don't know why we do things. We just do them because that's what's worked in our life, and it's easier than reinventing the whole wheel. So- Yeah ... I don't know. I don't think that that's a wrong reason to stay in the church, but- Yeah
so. I don't know. It's interesting. I feel like I'm a little nervous about this one because, 'cause there are definitely people that will get a hold of this and be like, "Oh, she's so apostate." Yeah. And, and you know, there is that fear that I'm not Mormon enough for some people, and if I'm not Mormon enough for some people who are in authority, that they could take that, and that has happened to people- Mm-hmm
which I think is really a tragedy and really kind of a violence. Um, I think excommunication of people who don't want to be excommunicated, who want to be a part of the community, is, it's pretty wrong. But it's just kind of the chance I have to take for living with my own integrity you know? Living- Yeah
the best way that I can. And you know, worst case scenario, there's always room in the apostate club. Fair. It's not too bad- Yeah ... over here. Well, and on the same note, I'm, I will always save a seat for you if you ever wanna come back. Okay. Fair enough. I love you so much. I love you too. You're just my favorite.
Not that you're my favorite kid, 'cause I don't have a favorite kid. She said it. Oh, look. I'm just your favorite person out of all of the people, kids included. There we go. Kidding. Oh my gosh, I get in trouble. Ugh. Well, thank you for having this discussion with me. Yeah, thank you. Love you too. I love you.
Talk to you soon.
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