Hi, I'm Kari. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee & Coco, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. What do you wanna bear your testimony on today? You go first because I have to think of something.
Um, I'm bearing my testimony on my charmera. And you might be asking what is that? It is- Yes ... a camera that is a charm. I don't have it connected yet to... Like, it came with, like, a thing that I can click it to my bag. But it's a tiny camera. It takes the crappiest photos, but it's just fun to have, like, a little I don't know.
Like, I'm into a camera gimmick. Like, I have a film camera. Like, I always have a disposable film camera, um, going that I take pictures with my friends on. I've had a G7X since 2017. Um, I like, I like a gimmick. I like snapping a photo on something that's on a phone 'cause I feel like when you take a phone photo, it's, like, so curated, and you're- Mm
like, really looking through all of your photos to find the perfect one, and I like these, like, little, like, I just grabbed a snap of something. Um, but my friend at work influenced me into buying one. Um, and they come in, like, these mystery packs, so you get to unbox what color you got, and I got green. Oh.
So- Cute. How fun. It's the brat one. It's- Yeah. I am really excited. She had one. She took pictures of us. We went, um, like, putt-putt golfing as a team. Mm-hmm. And she took pictures of all of us, and they turned out so fun. Oh, how fun. I love that. You can also take videos on them. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm, I'm interested to see.
So are they digital? Do they come out... They're digital, so you have to get, like, a small SD card for it. Oh, okay. And then you upload them. So actually my G7X is so much nicer because, like, it, like, creates its own Wi-Fi, and then I connect my phone to that Wi-Fi, and I can download the pictures directly. I don't have to plug it in.
So I do have to get an adapter for the SD card- Oh ... um, so that I can get the photos. Mm-hmm. Which then I... Like, I bought the camera, then I had to buy the SD card, then I had to... Now I have to buy an adapter, so this is becoming a really expensive- ... little hobby I picked up. That's so funny. But I'm still so excited.
I love it. That is so interesting to me because it just shows how things go in cycles because, um, I mean, of course, I grew up with film cameras, right? And, and- Mm-hmm ... the kind of film cameras that, you know, you would take a picture, and you wouldn't even have any idea what you got until you got your film developed, right?
Yeah. And so half the time when you got your film developed, you'd be making some kind of face, like, you know, or like- Yeah ... just some kind of, your eyes would be closed or, you know, there'd be red eye or, or all kinds of weird, funky things. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, so you would think that you took this beautiful, amazing picture, and you'd get it back, and it'd just be like...
It would be terrible. Like, pic- photography was terrible in those days. Mm-hmm. And so, um, when, when things went to digital, my photography improved so much because I could see it immediately and, like, self-correct- Mm-hmm ... immediately, right? So if I got somebody making- Yeah ... a weird face, I could immediately take it over again.
And- Mm-hmm ... and if, like, if I took a landscape, and it was just, like, this tiny dot of what I was trying to take a picture of, I could be like, "Oh, actually I need to get closer to that." And so Right. So I always think because, you know, I really got into photography when you were a little girl, but I don't think I ever would've with film because I'm way too cheap-
to do that many experiments, right? To get things back. Some of-- Yeah. Some of the, like this one's film. Some of these that I have are film that are just like... But it's fun because, like, we didn't know what we were taking at the time. Like, you can take a phone photo- Uh-huh ... and then, like, you just take a quick snap, and I always like joke after I take it, I'm like, "Ugh, guess we'll see what we got in three months."
Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. I love it. I like having the options. Yeah. Yeah. That is fun. So if it's like something that's really important that you wanna make sure that you capture this exactly as it is- Yeah ... you can do it with your phone. But no. Yeah. I do love... I-- It's interesting because I, I have a really nice camera, but I still just always use my phone.
I almost, I almost never use my camera anymore. It's kinda sad. It-- Well, there are times, there's experiences where I don't wanna be lugging around an extra thing, which is why I have the term right now, because I don't have to lug it around. Mm. But, but I feel like everything takes very different photos.
Yeah. So I'm gonna bear my testimony about the movie You've Got Mail, because that's back on Netflix, and it's such a cute movie, and I love watching it, especially since you're in New York now. It's fun to watch New York movies and be like, "Kimberly gets to see that," or, or things that we got to see when we were over there, when we went and saw you.
Um, like we went to, the movie talks about the, the place, Zabar's, right? Is that what it's called? Yeah. Yeah. We went to Zabar's. We went to Zabar's when we were there, and, you know, it's like, "Oh, I've been there." And, but that's just like one of my all-time favorite movies. It is so cute. It is adorable. I love that movie.
I love that and, um, When Harry Met Sally. Yeah. Like, I think that that's a really good double feature. Also, I love movies about New York that feel like living in New York. Like, You've Got Mail feels like living in New York to me. Yeah. Versus like, it's like Vegas, if you watch Fools Rush In, that feels like living in Vegas versus, like, something like The Hangover, which is very much about Vegas, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Like, that movie just always has been so cute and, and also I love the storyline, like the Pride and Prejudice storyline. I love Pride and Prejudice with Keira Knightley, but also-- but it's just a fun story. Yeah. It's super cute, and I love Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks. Oh, yeah. Like, I think that's just such a fun pairing.
They are a fun pair. Uh, yeah. Did you ever see one that they did called Joe Versus the Volcano? No. Oh my gosh. If you've-- You have to find that one because it is so weird, but it's also s- Uh-huh. It's also super cute. It's-- I-- They just did a series of a bunch of movies together, Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, for a while.
They did- Yeah ... Sleepless in Seattle and, and You've Got Mail. But, but Joe Versus the Volcano, it's just the quirkiest weird movie, but, but it's, it's worth watching. I always loved that one too, so... Anyways. Awesome. So today we thought we would do a thing. To end our season, we thought we would do, um, a couple of episodes where I'm gonna try to talk you into returning to the church, and then next week you're gonna try to talk me into leaving the church, and just make our case for it, just for kicks.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's so personal. Like, I don't know if I necessarily want you specifically to leave the church, but- Oh, okay. Um, I'm exci-- I'm interested to see what you've cooked up. Yeah. Well, mine's pretty personal. Oh, why I specifically should come back. Kind of, yeah. So I wanted to start just by saying, um, like I just want it to be really clear, like right at the front, that I would never want you to, to come back to the church unless it was something that you wanted, right?
I wouldn't want it to be, um, something that would compromise your integrity or your values or make you uncomfortable. So w- before we even start, I just wanted to make that clear that this is not like, this is not like me actually trying to tell you that you should come back to the church. Right. Right. Um, I especially wouldn't want you to do it just like to appease me or to make me feel better or to do it, you know, to do it for our relationship.
And I love you, but I wouldn't. And see, and I'm glad because it's so important for, for me, and I think it's been important for you too, that our relationship is about based on authenticity and based on who we really are and not trying to pretend to be somebody that we're not for, for each other. And I just want you to know that I wouldn't love you anymore and I wouldn't think that you're a better person if you came back to the church.
I love you exactly how you are and for who you are. So just wanted to make sure I started with that. Right? So that being said, like, I divided my argument into three parts. One is why I think you should come back to, to the church for you, and then why I think you should come back to the church for the church, and then why selfishly I think the ways it would benefit me if you came back to the church.
So all right. I'm, like, strapped in. I'm ready. Good. I'm a little nervous about next week, I'm not gonna lie, but that's okay. So the biggest reason that I think that it would benefit you to come back to the church is for the community, and we've talked about this a million times. And of course, the community does have its downsides, right?
There are always... You know, when you're dealing with human beings, you're dealing with the best and the worst, right? There's, there's gonna be, um, cattiness and there's gonna be gossiping and all of those kinds of things. But there's also really good things about the community. There are really good people in the church.
Um, I, I mean, I do think that that's the best thing about the church, is that there, is that there are some really beautiful, kind souls, and it's nice to have those built-in friendships wherever you go. And, you know, you can make the argument that, that we should be friendly to everybody, uh, that moves in the area or whatever, but when somebody moves into your ward, it's just like, "Oh, here's a new part of our family, and we're excited to have them."
And that's always been a really beautiful thing to me, right? That I know that I can go any place in the world and go to church and have people that I have something in common with, people that will take care of me if I need something, um, people that will help, help me out if I need it. I do think that that is a beautiful part of the church.
I'm not disagreeing. I just also think that I can find community and have found community outside of the church, and it's just really nice to have people that I care about, that I can depend on, that aren't conditional. Right. I mean, I guess every relationship is conditional, right? Like, there are conditions under which we can safely and productively have this relationship.
However, it doesn't require me to follow what an old man says. Like- Nope ... in my community, we have alcohol, and that's actually part of it. And, um, I don't know, I-- if I couldn't find community outside of the church, that might keep me in,
but Yeah. I have found it outside of the church, and I'm really proud of my community that I have here. And I love that, and I, and I am proud of you. And I-- Like, it's-- You've put a lot of work into it, which I think- Mm-hmm ... is, is awesome and beautiful. Mm-hmm. Part of the reason I think that the church is different is because, like, it's really good for us to have to deal with people who are different from us.
Mm-hmm. Right? And when you curate your own community, you get to pick everybody. I think it's really good for us to deal with people who, who kind of irritate us sometimes, and also people who are, like, a lot older than us, and the people who are a lot younger than us. When you're curating your own community, you're just kinda-- you get to pick and choose the people that are a part of that, and, and that sometimes I think doesn't necessarily stretch you in the same ways that, that a church community would.
I disagree, though. I think that church communities are curated mainly by the fact that it's curated to anyone who believes the same God as you. Um, and I think that it is cool to also be stretched in the ways of people that believe, have different religious beliefs than me, have different political beliefs than me sometimes, like in certain ways.
Um- Mm-hmm ... and I do think that I still am interacting with people from different backgrounds and different, um, ages. But, like, I do understand, like, when it comes to my close friends, there's a certain- Mm-hmm ... curation there. But, um, I still do have community beyond that. Um, and I do- Yeah ... even within my close friends have to deal with issues and problems and people that irritate me, or people- Yeah
that, like, are friends with the same friends I'm friends with, but I'm not particularly friends with them, you know? Um- Hmm. Yeah ... I, I think it's a give and take. Like, I can see where some of the curation that you do when you're self-selecting- Mm-hmm ... happens, but, like, also you are self-selecting in a church.
You're deciding to be around all of the people that believe- That's true ... the same thing as you. That's true. Well, any group that you have, you're gonna have the things that brought you together that you have- Mm-hmm ... in common, and then you're gonna have things that are different. Yeah. Right? And different back- And so- ...grounds that we're b-bringing to the table.
And I will say that, like, I'm speaking from my position of, like, I live in a very diverse area, and so even if we're all coming together because we like to read the same kind of book, we're a diverse group. Yeah. And I think that, like, that's kind of the point of this too, is that, like, there's good and bad about whatever you choose.
Mm-hmm. Right? There's gonna be the upside and the downside, and it's not like we-- there's ever anything that we can pick that is all upside. I wish there was. Mm-hmm. That would be nice. But then that also wouldn't require us to grow- Yeah ... or learn anything, so. The other part that I wanted to share about the community is that it gives you opportunities to serve in a lot of different ways.
I think that you're good about looking for people who need your help- Mm-hmm ... and people that you can reach out to and offer to make their lives better in some way. I think that you're good about looking for that. Um, the church just kind of hands that to you, which is nice. Yeah. Um, it is harder, like, to find people to help or, like, to find the areas in the community where I can help.
I do s- think that the church makes that easier, um, because- Mm-hmm ... A, I don't think that to a certain degree anyone's too proud to accept help. Like, we always accepted people helping us move because we helped other people move. Or, like, if somebody wants- Mm-hmm ... to come mow the, the lawn, of course you can.
Like, we're not too proud to accept that help. And also, there's a more structured way to ask for help. Um- Yeah ... even if it's not, like, official, like you're not going to your bishop and saying, "Oh, we're struggling with this," somebody in your ward is probably gonna notice that so-and-so doesn't have presents for their kid this year, or so-and-so had a sister- Yeah
that just passed, or things like that where that information is gonna spread, and then lots of people are going to come to your aid. And I do miss that Yeah. The other thing that I think that would be good for you that I have appreciated in my life from the church is, like, the organizing principle of it gives my life a rhythm.
It gives me something to do without always having to look for something to do. Um, like, it's just nice to be part of something bigger than myself, and I think, um, it gives me the opportunity to contribute to something bigger than myself, right? Like, it's, it's one thing to go serve at a soup kitchen. It's another thing to know that you're taking your turn this week serving at a soup kitchen, but you're part of, like, that soup kitchen constantly running.
Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? Yeah, kind of. But I feel like the example you gave was still an example that, like, is true. Like, everyone that volunteers is part of making that run. Like, there's lots of areas outside of the church where you can be a part of something bigger- Mm-hmm ... um, and where your contribution is part of a whole, right?
Like, even, like, volunteering for political campaigns or- Sure. Yeah ... um, in your work life or when it comes to, like, other community aspects. Like, somebody's had a breakup in your friend group, and you guys are taking your turn sitting with that person- Mm-hmm ... and, or making sure that they're not alone. So I, I don't necessarily think that I need that to be part of something bigger.
Yeah. And I also care about what the something bigger is, and the church doesn't always head in the direction that I would like or appreciate being a part of. That's true, too. I do think that that's, um, you know, because that's the downside of it, is that there's sometimes things that the church does that I'm just like, "Um, I'm-- I don't agree with that, and I don't want to sign my name to that."
But, um- Yeah. And since, like, the things that I am a part of aren't, like, a religious affiliation or aren't part of my, um, identity in such a big way, like, it's not, like, a label that I carry, I don't feel like I have to stand for every-- like, I can opt in and opt out versus, like, when you're a member of the church.
Even compared to other churches- Mm-hmm ... when you're a member of the LDS faith, like, you are in and you are LDS or you're out. Mm-hmm. There's a... It's harder to be in that in between. Yeah. Well, and I think that at this point in my life, I've definitely gotten to that in between place where, where I do- Mm-hmm
feel more comfortable saying, "Nope, this is, this is not something that I'm interested in participating in." Mm-hmm. But, um, but that has taken some, some growth on my part and some effort on my part, I think. The other thing that I think that would be really good for you- Yeah ... that you would enjoy more is that it gives you opportunities to organize things and to, um, create events, like to use your talents and, and gifts creatively, like girls camp or a Relief Society luncheon or anything like that.
Those have always been things that I've enjoyed participating in that have let me use my creative outlets and given me an excuse to, like, I don't know where else I would say, "I'm just gonna throw this luncheon for all of these women," and spend time, like, organizing that and planning it and creating it and making it a beautiful experience and, and all of those kinds of things have always been a lot of fun for me to do.
I'll give you that one. I also think that the church builds those specific talents, so it is really difficult, especially, like, in a workspace where I'm like, I actually am very good at ev-event planning, and nobody knows that. And like- Yeah ... I have a lot of experience with putting something together and making sure that everybody knows it's here and making it look cute and making sure that, like, A to Z we've thought of the different things that people might need.
Mm-hmm. Um, it's incredibly hard for me to take a backseat because I don't have anything on my resume that says that. I just have growing up in the church for 18 years. Yeah. Um, and also, like, all of the Mormon weddings that we've helped with- Yeah ... and, like, so I will say that that's hard. Also, I think that I would love to be more of, like, a entertainer, like, in terms of, like, having people over and- Mm
providing a meal and things like that. I just don't have the space because- Right ... I pay a lot of money to live in, like, less than 1,000 square feet. I know. Sometimes. So there's no space to host, and the church is nice because you don't need a space. You just do it at the church. Yeah. Um, so I'll give you that one.
Not enough reason to go back, but it is something that I do miss. Like- Okay ... and I do try to fill that in, like, um, like I volunteer with my ERG at work- Oh, good ... uh, which is an employee resource group, so they have different groups for, like, women. Um, like, they have LGBTQ plus, uh, ERG. They have, like, a Black ERG.
They have an Asian Pacific Islander ERG, like all these different ERGs, so I volunteer with the woman one. Mm. And I put on our book club. But it is harder in, like, a work situation- Yeah ... than in a church situation. Yeah, fun. Anyways, so those were just some ideas that I thought you might benefit from. The next section that I had though was the reasons that I think the church would benefit, because I really do very much feel like the church lost out when it lost my children.
Because- Mm-hmm. ... you guys are incredible people, and I think that all of the people that are leaving the church in general is definitely impoverishing the church. Because any group is healthier with diversity. Anything c- that can break up the groupthink and, um, bring a new perspective and say, "Okay, have we thought about it this way?
Have we looked at it from a different angle?" All of those things make the church healthier. Even if the group ultimately decides, "No, we don't think that," I think it's always helpful to have new ideas introduced and new ideas shared. Mm-hmm. And so I think that the church is really losing out by losing the people that it's-- that have left, because all of those really great ideas are leaving, and then we end up, um...
And then when you leave, you're leaving it to the people who think, um- I don't know. You're creating more of a monolith. Yeah. You're creating more of a monolith if you're not getting those diverse opinions. Yes. And that monolith is not always the right place that you wanna be. Well, I think that that's kind of a cycle, right?
The, the more, um, strict that the main group adheres to that monolith, the more it- Mm-hmm ... drives people out. But it does create a less healthy environment, I think, for- Yeah ... um, for the people that are in. I feel like it kind of stagnates the group. And so t- also, there are people within the Church that need that point of view that you could offer, that need that experience that you could offer that's different than everything else that they've been hearing.
Yeah. That's been a big reason that I've wanted to stay, is to be a person that can listen to other points of view and, um, and empathize with other points of view and, and help people that really do want to stay and, and don't feel like they can create community outside of it, don't feel secure enough to leave.
Um- Wow ... but making the Church a more loving place for more people, that's one of the big reasons I think that the Church would benefit by you coming back to church, so. Do you have any thoughts about that? Yeah. I think that when I liked the Church the most and, like, when I felt most, like, unified with the Church was when I felt like we're a group of people that are trying to make the world more loving, we're trying to make it better.
We're, we're called to serve other humans. Um, that's, that's when I felt best, and I think that if the Church was just that, then I would stay. And I think that if the Church was just that, like you said, it does benefit to have lots of different people with different perspectives in it. Mm-hmm. Like, it makes sense that if we want to be more loving towards the LGBTQ+ community, that we should have people in our group that are gay, that are trans, that are genderqueer, that experience these things and can tell us what feels like loving towards them.
Mm-hmm. Um, same with different, like, racial or ethnic groups, different, um, cultures, different identities like that. However- Mm-hmm ... they don't do that . And I don't think that me being in the Church necessarily would change that that much. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that I could be someone to lean on, but then to what end, right?
Um, I think that I do more service outside of the Church, and I think I do more service by being someone who has left the Church to be able to talk to cousins or friends or people I grew up with that left the Church and be like, "Hey, it's gonna be okay." Yeah. "You are not an awful person. People are still gonna love you."
Um, I think I do more service from this end. Also ... Uh-huh ... that isn't the main goal or priority of the Church And I think that if it was, it would be a different church. I think that if we could separate from Joseph Smith's teachings in a lot of ways, or him as a person, if we could separate from, um, the exclusivity of like temple ordinances, uh, things like that.
If, if it was more focused on Christ-like love in an organized way- Mm-hmm ... then I think I would be a part of it still. That's so interesting because just the thing is to me is that when we say the church, right, like the church is just this amorphous... Like the church is a lot of different things, but most concretely the church is the people, right?
The church is the people that make up the church. And so when we say the church isn't this or isn't that, it's okay, there, there are people in the church that are, and there are people in the church that aren't. Right? And I think more people in the church that are focused on loving and being more Christ-like and including people, um, makes the church more that way.
See, I disagree. I think the church is the church, and the people are the people. I think the church is the organization and the teachings and the belief. I think that it is the leadership that is made up. I think it is the rules that are constructed. I think it is the organization as a whole. Mm-hmm. And the people are the people that show up.
I think that people are good. I don't think it's even just LDS people. I think people given a direction to do good will do good. Yeah. And I do think that the Church as an organization is very good at giving people a direction in a lot of ways. Like, all the things that we talked about, about community, I think that that is the Church giving good people direction to do good.
I think that when I say the Church, that I can't separate that from is the teachings of Joseph Smith or the teachings of Brigham Young or the organization that asks people for 10% tithe and then hoards that wealth and now is richer than the Disney Corporation. I think that that is what I'm talking about- Mm-hmm
when I say the Church and the separation. I, I'm not against an organization that is bringing people together to do the best of humanity. Like, I think that we all have that in us. Mm-hmm. But I don't think that that even needs to be connected to a shared belief in a god. I think that's interesting 'cause we see that very differently, right?
Like, I see, like, Brigham Young as a member of the Church, right? A very influential member of the Church, and his influence is felt in certain ways. But I also see, like, myself as a member of the Church, and I don't have as much influence as Brigham Young, but I still have an influence on what the Church is.
Does it make sense? Somewhat. I can see where you're getting at, but I also think that there is a distinction between being a member of the Church or being a follower of these teachings versus being the person that's creating the doctrine- Mm-hmm ... or organizing the Church. Yeah. That's interesting. I'm gonna have to think about that more.
And I, I don't think that you don't think that those are different, but I do see what you're saying about like we're all members and we're all influencing to some degree, and some of us to higher degrees and some of us to lesser degrees. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like there's no doctrine in the church that's changing because Kari Bates says so.
No, but I do think that I can influence the culture in my ward towards, um- Yeah ... these things are more important and these things are, are less important. But no matter how loving you are to the gay members in your congregation, they're not gonna be able to be sealed in the temple. And I guess that's where I'm seeing the distinction between the church and the people in the church.
Yeah. Well, and this is the thing, is that I think that that's true, but I also think that when a critical mass of us hope that gay people can be sealed in the temple, then, then that will change. Because I think that the more, the more loving that the membership is, then in some ways the leadership follows, which isn't really h- officially how the church works, but also if you look at the history of the church, that is how change has been affected in the church.
Yeah, but that's not revelation. Like, I, I guess like it's hard to like dissect that from like a belief in the church- Yeah ... like, and the way that they say that they function. Yeah. I mean, that, that goes back to like, okay, well, what is revelation? I think if you look at the process of revelation, it's just growing closer to the mind of God, and I think we sometimes like to think of, of God just talking in the prophet's ear, and I don't think that that's how revelation happens.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that that's not how revelation happens. Anyways, okay. So The last one was just me selfishly, like what I would enjoy about having you return to church. Mm. And so the first thing that I thought of is, like every place that you've lived, whenever there's been something that's gone wrong or something that you, you needed help with or anything like that, it's always been just like, I wish I could call the Relief Society.
I wish I could send somebody over to your house. I wish I knew that you had that community that would, would just jump in and take care of you if you needed taking care of. Mm. That's probably the hardest thing, honestly, for, for me, for you not being a part of the Church. And I'm really glad that you've lived in New York now long enough that you have a community of people that I know that are looking out for you, and like, if you needed a ride to the hospital, somebody would drive you to the hospital, or if you needed- Nobody drives here.
Nobody drives. You just would have to walk to the hospital? Somebody would help me. Somebody would... If I said I needed to a hospital, but I'm scared about making it there, somebody would come with me. Okay. But I do wish sometimes that you had that com-- that-- Because, because it just does kind of feel like an extended family.
It just feels like somebody's- Mm-hmm ... looking out for my kid wherever she is. Yeah. It is a cool network, and it's hard to, like, disengage from that network. Yeah. It... And know it's still there, that's, that is weird. Yeah. But also, I mean, not all of the members of the Church are the way that you're describing.
Like, not all of them are super helpful. It's true. It's true. We're still human, for sure, but I just was reading a, a, or listening to an interview with Carolyn Pearson. Um, do you know who Carolyn Pearson is? I'm not off the top of my head She's an, she's an LDS poet, and she was kind of a little bit before your time.
Oh. But, um, but she's always been one of my favorite. But she wrote a book, um, called Goodbye, I Love You. But her- Mm-hmm ... she, she had gone to BYU and married a, a gay man who was trying not to be gay. And, you know, the book just kind of goes through that whole experience of, of him trying to make the church work for him and not being able to make the church work for him.
You know, they had a family together and then, um- Mm-hmm ... and then at some point he was just like, "I can't, I can't do this anymore." And he moved to San Francisco and started living a gay lifestyle, and they got divorced. Well, it was the '80s, and he got AIDS. And then, um, he called her and let her know that he was dying, and, um, I mean, they had kept in touch and, and been very good friends.
Uh-huh. But when he was dying, he, he came to her house. She was living in Utah at the time. And she just talks about how, um, even though this difficult thing had happened and nobody understood how her Relief Society just came and gathered around her and took care of her and brought meals into them- Mm-hmm
while, while she was nursing him and took care of their kids- Right ... so that she could take care of him. And like- Mm-hmm ... like I've had that happen in my life where people have, you know, c- I had a baby, and so somebody came and got all my laundry and did all of the laundry and- Mm-hmm ... you know, that kind of a thing.
I think that that's just such a- Mm-hmm ... beautiful thing to be a part of. And, and- Yeah ... I wish that... And like you said, not, not everybody has wonderful, perfect experiences with it, but, um- Mm-hmm ... but at its best, it's a really beautiful community. Yeah. Um, I agree. Yeah. Um, some of the rituals I still miss, right?
Like I miss just- Mm-hmm ... honestly just going to church together, right? Just sitting in church together. Mm-hmm. And having those excuses to have a, a celebration, like when the baby is blessed or when somebody's baptized. Mm-hmm. And, and we still do, and you know, we've, we've talked about that, that we're trying to, to create new ones.
But it was like, um, when our friend passed away a little while ago, all of his family came to the temple together. Mm-hmm. And you know, there's weird things about the temple. It's, it's very ritualistic and all of that kind of thing. But, um, it just was really beautiful that, that his whole family had a place to gather and kind of celebrate that, y- you know, that they felt like he was still a part of them, and that it was just like this, this shared moment in this, this place that was- Mm-hmm
sacred to all of them. And so- Mm-hmm ... so some things like that, like I really would love to still have our family be a part of. And like I said, we're, we're working on creating new traditions and that kind of thing, but, um... Yeah. No, I hear you, and it, it's hard when like the shared space of peace isn't shared anymore.
Like it's, it's hard to find that for yourself, um, versus like it being handed to you of like, "Here's this place. We consider it peaceful. This in our culture is peaceful." Yeah. "We're all gonna go together." And it's hard, too, when like for you, that's still your main place of peace, but that's not for us, so we can't be there f- with you and experience the same way you do.
Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah. It does. And like I said, I would never want to put you there in a situation where you were uncomfortable because that would not be the same thing. Well, you can't put us in the temple no matter how much you try. I just... Yeah, that doesn't work. No. They won't let us in anymore.
So dumb. But it wouldn't be the same if we were there. No. You know? Like, it wouldn't... Like, what you're talking about is a shared family with a shared belief having a shared experience, and we don't have that shared space right now. Yeah. It's kind of, I was thinking of it as kind of a language thing, right?
Like- Mm-hmm ... I mean, I was even thinking about, like, people whose children leave their home country, right? That- Mm-hmm ... because just, like, our heritage and, and our... I hate to say culture and heritage because that takes me back to, um- What does it make you think of? Not the same thing? Okay. It just, there's a line in O Brother, Where Art Thou?
Where there's like, "That's not my culture and heritage." That, that's what that always makes me think. I can't believe I missed that. Oh. Anyways. That wasn't coming up for me. That's funny. I love that movie. O Brother, Where Art Thou? That's a great movie. Um, I thought when, when somebody leaves their country and moves to America or whatever, that I'm sure that that was hard for some mothers to have those kind of traditions and those stories and that kind of shared language and shared, um- Like family consciousness that wouldn't- Mm-hmm
continue to be passed on in the same way. And so that one's always a little sad for me too. Um- Yeah. I think I've been thinking a lot about, like, culture, culture and heritage- ... and, like, how, like, especially living in a place where there aren't a lot of LDS people or people that grew up in the LDS faith- Mm-hmm
um, like saying that I am a Mormon is kind of like still an identifier. It is part of who I am. It is a huge part of how I was raised. Mm-hmm. But I'm not anymore, and kind of still claiming that identity as an identity even though it's not something that I continued with. Yeah. And I think that if I had multiple lives to live, I think there's a life where I would just kind of turn away from the doubts that I had or the, the ways that I felt like the church was wrong and just kind of...
I mean, I, I have a lot of friends that are still Mormon that I don't think are bad people, but I, I know that they have to deal with that cognitive dissonance somehow. Mm-hmm. And I think that if I had multiple lives to live, one of them I would've just done that. Yeah. 'Cause there's also things, like, that I expected to have growing up that I don't.
Like, I'm not married. I don't have kids, and I definitely thought I would at this point. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure if I stayed in the church, I would at this point. Yeah. So I think if I had multiple lives to live, that wouldn't have been a bad life to live. But I only have one life to live, and I think that I have to live that life the truest to who I am, and that's why I'm picking this.
Yeah. Yeah. And it is what I most want, but it doesn't mean that the alternative is necessarily all that bad. Yeah. I think that that's a really good way to put that because yeah, it's not like you're saying... Well, it's just there is good and bad in everything, right? Like, whatever choices you make, your grandma used to always say, uh, be-- about records, like your grandma.
Mm-hmm. She says when you-- when she was a little girl, you would buy a record, and you would get the song that you wanted on one side, and you would get the song that you got- Mm-hmm ... on the other side, right? Yeah. And so, um, I love knowing that you're deliberately choosing what you're choosing, and that you're not just kind of doing it because this is how things have ended up.
Mm-hmm. Um, that's what makes it okay for me that you're not a part of the church, right? Yeah. That's a lot-- a big part of it is that you're, you're making your choices deliberately, and this is what you want. Mm-hmm. And- And I've said this a lot of times, it's beautiful to watch you live your life in the way that you've- Mm-hmm
chosen and to be happy at it and to, to find joy, and also to have some struggles and to have some difficult things. And I think that, that, you know, that that's just what we have to accept about life is that it's not like there's one right choice that you can make that your life would be perfect, so.
Yeah. And, and with the record analogy, right, like with that metaphor too- Mm-hmm ... you don't have to listen to the other side of it, but in life you do. Like, you have to take the things that come with it. Mm-hmm. So, like, I do think that there is an option where, like, I could have chosen the church and been like, "There's lots of good things here," but I would have had to take what came with it, and I wasn't willing to do that- Yeah
right now, you know? Yeah. Because especially, like, when we talk about it culturally, it just would have been a lot easier to stay. I think that it would have created less friction with my family. And there are things like, like I remember when my cousin got pregnant, and you could talk to her about all of your advice on morning sickness and, like, had all of this advice about having a kid- Mm-hmm
or being a mother. And- I think that if I had taken that route, you would have a lot of advice for me. But when I come to you and I'm talking about, you know, KPIs or like - Yeah ... trying to get a new job or, um, trying to talk in my skip meeting about getting a raise, like things like that, you- that's just not your experience.
Mm-mm. And that's not something that... That's not a path that you've taken that you can come back and say, "Here's all of my advice on how you should do that." Right. Not that I would change it, but it is, like, it is the harder route. Yeah, in some ways, for sure. It would be easier to have my family around me in the temple and get married in the temple, even knowing what that means, than, like, living a completely different life and having to explain, like, why I'm excited about certain things or why this moment is important to me because it's not a shared experience.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. I can see that. And it's not an experience that anyone before me has lived. Uh, well, it's not an experience anyone before me in our family has lived. Yeah. Yeah. You're a pioneer.
I went back east. That's so funny. I don't know. But I'm glad that we're doing this all intentionally and creating intentionally the relationship we wanna have and- Mm-hmm ... the life that we wanna have. Mm-hmm. And connecting in the best way that we can. I agree. And building something new. Yeah. And I think part of building something new that feels meaningful is also acknowledging where, like, we feel like we might be missing something.
We might be missing- Yeah ... a connection, or we might be, like, needing to find a replacement for other feelings. Yeah. And recognizing that you have to give up some things. Yeah. Anyways, I'm very interested to hear your case. Yeah. I think mine's gonna be really different because there's not that much that would benefit me if you left the church, so.
Oh, no? I don't think so. You know? Like, everything that I want to do, you can do with me. That's good to know. Yeah. Well, do you have anything else? No. I love you. I love you so much. I'm not gonna come back to the church. But I still love you. I know, and that's okay. And I still love you. All right. Thanks for talking with me.
We'll talk to you soon. Bye.