Hi, I'm Kari. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Cocoa, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from f- both sides of the faith divide. So how's your week? It's good. Do you have any testimonies? I do. My testimony today is on sliced white bread, because I haven't had it in a while.
It's not something that I keep- Uh-huh ... around my house anymore, like, as an adult, um, probably because I'm always counting calories of some sort or doing something, you know, that makes me feel guilty for it. But I was- Mm ... so sick yesterday, and I could not hold anything down, and I got some sliced white bread, and I was like, "Nothing has tasted better.
Nothing has been better." Like, this is amazing. That's so funny. Did you get the, the Grandma Sycamore's kind that- No, they don't carry that in Whole Foods. I got like, um, I don't even know what brand. I got the one that looked the most like that. I do like the Grandma Sycamores. What I like the most though, that I need you to send me the recipe of, is Grandma's, um, quick...
What is it? Quick white bread or something. Uh-huh. Quick rise bread. Um, because I did invest in some loaf pans. Um, because- Oh ... like New York, you have to like, be really selective of the things you get, and- Right ... I made a lot of banana bread this, this year. So I have loaf br- pans, and I'm like, "I should make my own white bread."
Yeah. So that's my favorite one. Yeah. I like that recipe. It's not good for keeping, 'cause it has too much yeast in it. Mm-hmm. So it's not good for keeping for a few days. But if you just want like, hot homemade bread out of the oven- Mm-hmm ... that's, that's good stuff. Or scones. Mm-hmm. Okay, so my testimony is there's an Instagram account called The Tiny Joy Project.
Oh. And I, I love this account so, so much because, you know, there's just... Especially on social media, right? There's so much negativity and so many frustrating things going on. But like, she just posts the sweetest little, like, thoughts.
"There are trees alive today that were alive when your great-grandmother was a little girl running somewhere.
They're still here, still growing, still doing the quiet, patient work of being." Like, I just love her account because it's just like this little pause of like, there are good things. Yeah. There are good things in the world. And I, I don't know. I- It's, it's very good for me to pause, because then it also makes me kind of pause and be like, "Oh, you know, doing the dishes can be a moment of quiet, and peaceful, and like-" Mm-hmm.
this is just the beautiful work of being alive," kind of thing. And so anyways, go follow her 'cause she's- I love that ... just adorable. No, I love like, little moments of like, recognizing like- I live a good life and like things are good. Like, you know- Right ... things can be bad, but things are good. Yeah. And there is a lot of bad and a lot of frustrating.
And, and because the way our brains work, it's really easy to let that take over. Mm-hmm. Right? And to not appreciate... Like, I mean, when the sky is falling, it's hard to stop and just be like, "Okay." Mm-hmm. This is a lovely moment right now. But, but it's everything, right? It's everything that makes life worth living, so anyways.
Just a very sweet account and a very sweet way of living, so. So today we're gonna talk about if the Mormon Church is a cult. I know. I'm so excited. And I think the TLDR version of this is it's nuanced It is. Um- I think so ... but so is everything, because our social structures as, like, people and humans- Mm-hmm
does create some, some level of cultiness, I guess, no matter where that is. And I think that- Right ... like, there's always gonna be some kind of group control if you are in a group, and I think it's really interesting to evaluate. Right. Well, I think it's just human nature to, um, to tend towards being in a cult, right?
Like, we like that group think. We like somebody else to make decisions for us. Mm-hmm. It makes it easier. Mm-hmm. We like to belong. So, so I think it's very, very, um, human nature to want to be part of a cult. Yeah. I, I agree, and I think that the times where a cult becomes difficult for someone who is inside the cult is when there's something outside of their control that is making them not be able to obtain the rewards of that cult.
Um, like- Mm ... in the Mormon Church, if you're gay, that might be something that starts breaking that down for you. Um- Yeah ... but I am going to bring in what is called the BITE Model. What do you know about the BITE Model? I've looked at it before and, um, and I kind of looked at it again this week just because, because we were gonna talk about it this week, and, like, I think it's a really useful model.
Mm-hmm. But I think that it's important to remember that this is a guy who, who made this up. It's just a human being. It's not like the eternal law of the universe or anything like that, right? Like, but I do think it's very useful, um, to look at. And, and he was in a cult himself, wasn't he? Mm-hmm. So the BITE Model was created by Steven Hassan, and he was in a cult, and he s- started research around other, like, books that sociologists have put out.
So the reason that I do like this model and the reason that I do wanna use his research is it is more recent and it builds upon a lot of things that we have even talked about in earlier podcasts about, like, cognitive dissonance theory and, um, studies that were done about mind control in Communist China and things like that.
Um- Mm ... and the other interesting thing is that his research is really based in creating a model that can be used legally. So we don't have a legal way to- Hold people responsible for, quote-unquote, "mind control." Um, and the legal term for it is undue influence, which is just that somebody has used their power or their positioning over you to make it so that you can't make the best choices for yourself.
And his research is based on that because somebody that he was in a cult with did commit a crime based on- Mm ... what they were told to do within the cult. Oh, yeah. Um, and because the Mormon Church right now isn't asking you to break any laws- Right ... then we can have a more nuanced discussion about it without so many of the legal terms.
But I do think that it is important that, um, while, you know, like you said, he's not the end-all be-all, that his research is important to creating a legal terminology or a, um- Yeah ... way to measure a cult or measure undue influence. Well, real quick, like, uh, is undue influence the same thing as mind control?
Like, define undue influence a little bit better. So mind control, the reason that we don't use that term is because nobody is actually controlling you, and as humans, we know that nobody is actually in there with puppeteering strings- Right ... like making you do anything. So that's where that gets, like, very mushy.
It becomes, like, a, a very gray area because they don't actually control you. So the accurate term- Right ... for what we usually think of as mind control is an influence. It's, it's somebody who- Mm-hmm ... uses their power, which could be they're a leader of a group that you're a part of, or they have financial power over you, or they have, um- Mm
situational power over you. Um, they control resources or... And those resources could even be, like, emotional resources that can- Right ... control what you do. And- Mm ... again, everything is measured on a continuum because there is no black and white to, "I did this strictly because this person, you know, had-" Right
made him." Like, and the type of influence can change the degree at which they can influence you, your behavior. Right. So let me see if I can restate this, and tell me if I'm right. I mean, you can't say, like, "Somebody made me do it." Mm-hmm. Right? Because, like, we're actually always all responsible for our own actions- Mm-hmm
as adults, right? Yeah. But, like- I did it because this person influenced me in these ways. Right. Right? And, and- Yes ... I don't know. I'm not, I'm not sure if I'm saying that right. I mean- But- ... it makes sense. The other thing that we have to separate is there are legal terms for somebody financially controlled me, which is part of the BITE model, but it is a little bit different.
But like- Uh-huh ... somebody is in financial control or physical control, like we have laws and regulations around physical abuse or financial abuse. But we don't- Sure ... have as many strict laws around this type of influence, like that you would have in a cult- Right. Right ... which is the mental and emotional influence that can build over time and be created by a series of other different controls that this person might have, or this group might have.
Right. That's the real point, right, is because it's like, okay, a cult leader isn't actually physically controlling their following. Mm-hmm. But they have built up some kind of dependency and exerted that power in a way that, um, that has undue influence- Yeah ... on others. So he has a model called the influence continuum, and there's- Mm-hmm
constructive and healthy influence, and there's destructive and unhe- healthy influence, and it all exists on a c- uh, continuum. And he also breaks it down to like, what does this look like for individuals, what does this look f- like for leaders, and what does this look like for organizations or relationships?
So like for individuals, when it's constructive and healthy, you have like creativity and humor, you have your own conscious, you have compassion- Mm-hmm ... you have free will. For leaders, um, it's knowing their limits and empowering individuals and being trustworthy. And for organizations, it's egalitarianism, um, having informed consent, checks and balances, things like that.
Um- Mm-hmm ... destructive and unhealthy, or like what would be a cult, would be conditional love, um, hate, fear and guilt, or dependency, lots of obedience, um, on the individual level. For leaders, it looks like elitist leaders, people that are power hungry, um, or who are secretive. And then for organization, it looks like elitism again.
Um, the power is preserving their own power and justify the means, not having any legitimate reasons for somebody to leave the organization. So we're gonna talk about that continuum on the BITE model, and the BITE model- Mm-hmm ... stands for the different kinds of control. So there's B, behavioral control, I, information control, T, thought control, and E, emotional control.
Mm. And you place those, like the things that are breaking down on that, on the continuum. Okay. And we're gonna just kind of discuss, because we're on two different sides of this. And I do wanna hear that, like I'm not the first person that has discussed the Mormon, Mormon church against the BITE model.
Like that's- Oh, no ... been done a lot. But I think that this is unique that like we're having a conversation from two different sides of it. Yeah, I agree. Um, so just starting out with behavioral control. Some of the things that are considered behavioral control are regulating a physical reality, um, dictating how or when members live, associate, things like that.
Um, dictating your sexual activities- Mm-hmm ... um, controlling clothing or diet, financial exploitation, permission for important decisions. Um, and then it gets as far as like beating, torture, rape, and murder. Well, that's not usually happening. Yeah. Thank goodness. But I do... Some of the things that on my end, I do think that- Mm-hmm
the Mormon Church does to a severe degree are things like controlling your clothing and what you wear. Um, because- Mm-hmm ... members wear garments and that dictates like everything else you wear because it has to cover the garments, and it's also an item of clothing that, a, you can only purchase through the church.
Mm-hmm. And, b, you have to wear every day, so you're putting it on every day and thinking about it every day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I can see how that fits in with the BITE model. Um, and it... Like, garments are an interesting thing, right? Because, like- Explicitly, they're a choice, right? Mm-hmm. Just like we were talking about earlier.
And so you can choose to wear your garments or not wear your garments. But there is definitely social pressure to wear them. There's judgment from others if- Mm-hmm ... if, if they know that you've been through the temple. Or, like, you, you can't al- you can't prove that anybody else is judging you for it, but you just- Mm
kind of feel that, that kind of thing. But, like, from the inside, how many times have you heard like, "Oh, she's not wearing her garments with that"? Oh, yeah. Like, I even watch- Yeah ... Secret Lives- That definitely happens ... of Mormon Wives, and sometimes, like, the ones that are active members, they wear, like, something that is to- like, sleeveless.
And I'm like, that's not a garment dress. Like... Right. Well, and it's a funny thing too, because just recently where they've changed the garments- Mm-hmm ... that they don't have sleeves anymore, so a lot of LDS women are wearing tank tops. And that's just been interesting to watch come up in myself, right? Mm-hmm.
Because I'll see people in a tank top and be like, and then - You're like, "Ugh" ... and then it's like, oh, okay, first of all, why do you care? And second of all, that's how- Yeah ... they are now. You can wear a tank top with it. And also, like- But it's just really funny, 'cause that's very internalized for me. Yeah. And it's a physical manifestation of, "I'm following the rules," right?
Right. Instantly looking at someone, even in modesty culture, instantly looking at someone you can say they're following the rules or not. And in a group thing- Yeah ... like, that matters a lot. It is funny though. Coachella just happened, and this one creator blew up because he was like, "And here's my-" I did see that.
You saw this? He was like- I did ... "It's my vintage white T-shirt, so you can see my tattoos through it. I love it. It's the perfect baggy T-shirt." Uh-huh. And it has the garment symbol on it. Like, it's an old garment- that somebody has donated, which you're not supposed to do. And- even that is a behavior control.
Like, you're not supposed to donate your garments. You're not supposed to just throw them away. You're supposed to cut the symbols out of them and what- burn them, right? or just, like, make sure that they're, they're not recognizable. So, like, even the person who disposed- of that garment wasn't following the rules, because it's not meant for someone- to be able to just find and buy. But now people are buying garment tops on eBay. Oh, really? Yeah, 'cause they're like, "This actually really is the perfect slouchy T-shirt." Like- Oh my gosh ... you can buy an oversized garment. Well, you have to... Like, you have to have your recommend to buy them. No, but- So that's interesting, I wonder.
people are buying other people's old garments. 'Cause, like, people who leave the church, like- they're not disposing of them probably. And they're also- not wearing them anymore- Makes sense ... probably. Yeah. How funny. What a weird thing. Um, some other things in here that I wanted to talk about were the sexual control, like they do- Mm-hmm
attempt to control through, again, societal pressure and also through punishment- Right ... who you have sex with. So if you have sex outside of marriage- Yeah ... and you go to talk to a bishop about it, there's going to be some sort of community punishment, which is you can't take the sacrament and you can't go through the temple.
Also, there is a lot of like things that encourage that compliance, like there's lots of talks about it, and there's lots of like- Right ... it's in the curriculum of the church to talk about not having sex outside of marriage. And, ugh, like to me, that's not entirely a bad thing. I mean, we- we've had episodes on this, uh, about this before, and we kind of disagree about like, um, to what degree people should just be able to have sex with whomever- Mm-hmm
and whenever they, they want to. And I just think that it just needs to be taken really seriously. Um- Mm-hmm ... you know, back to we talked a lot about, um, integrating our sexuality versus repressing our sexuality. Mm-hmm. Right? And so, and I think that- In order to develop in a healthy way, that there have to be some checks on- Mm-hmm
on what your sexual behavior is. Yeah. And then another big control, or the, the last two ones that really stand out to me are the regulation of diet, um, because Mormons can't drink coffee. Um, there's, there's the whole Word of Wisdom, and also once a month you have Fast Sunday where you don't eat. Right. Um, and then, uh, obviously financial control because members pay a t- 10% tithe.
Yeah. And then- Yeah ... when we're looking at it at a continuum- Mm-hmm ... how do they encourage that beha- behavior? So, like, the behaviors themselves, we can agree that there are behaviors within this that do exist, that are behavioral- Right ... controls, that there is a push for obedience. Mm-hmm. But it's not the same level as, like, forcing you to marry someone, or f- you know, that you don't want to.
Right. Or, um, torture, rape, you know? Right. Murder, things like that. Like, what the consequences are for, for disobeying these rules are a lot, um- Yeah ... like, that's where the continuum comes in, right? Like, we don't, we don't shun people- Yeah ... officially. Which some... Okay, so we can talk about that. There is, like, an otherism, right?
Like, if you leave the church, you are outside. Um, and like- Yeah ... if you are someone like me who has most of their family in the church still, that does make you, like, an other or, or an outsider, and you also, like, can lose your community. But also, that's not just from, like, not fasting or not- Right ... paying your tithing.
The more specific consequences are things like if you don't pay your tithing, you can't go to the temple. Right. And that is something that is tracked, and you have to go do a tithing settlement, and I mean, your bishop knows if you've paid anything or not, and they're the ones that issue your temple recommend.
Yeah. And that's very explicit. Yeah. It is. If you drink coffee, you're not going to not be able to go to the temple necessarily. Like, there are plenty of members who do try it, and it's fine. There's not an immediate consequence. But there is a social pressure if somebody- Mm-hmm ... who is Mormon who saw that- Yeah You know, feel a way about you.
Like, there, there is pressure, but it's not so much as, like- Right ... "We're going to kick you out of the community, and you're gonna have to go live somewhere else and lose your family because- Yeah ... you drank coffee." I'm just thinking of ex- of examples of this, but, like, a friend of mine one time, I, I was substitute teaching, and she was a teacher, and we were standing on the playground talking, and sh- it was cold in the morning, and she had her mug or whatever.
And I d- I wasn't even really paying attention or anything like that. Mm-hmm. But then I noticed that she was kind of hiding it from me, right? Mm-hmm. Like, she was kind of trying to... And I was just like, which, which, like, I didn't care at all, right? Es- Mm-hmm ... especially 'cause, like, I was in a, a stage of my deconstruction, reconstruction- Mm-hmm
kind of thing, where I was just like, "You drink whatever you want, girl. I don't, I don't care." Mm-hmm. Um, but the, but it was just very interesting to me that she was very self-conscious about that. And, you know, and it was, like, hard because there wasn't really a good way for me to communicate, like, like, "Oh, I see you're drinking coffee, and that's fine.
Like, I, I don't care that you're break-" Right, because she doesn't need your permission. But it just was so fascinating to me because that was a case of her putting that pressure on herself. But it was a reasonable pressure for her to put on herself because, because there definitely are, have been times in my life where I would have been like, "My gosh, she's drinking coffee.
Like, do I need to worry about her soul?" kind of thing. And I don't think she put that pressure on herself. Like, I think that the organization put that pressure on her, that that is a reflection of- Okay ... the organizational pressure. Because if we all have our own free will, and there isn't any influence, right?
Like, if we're on, like, completely the other end of the- Right ... spectrum, she's not gonna think twice about drinking coffee. She wants coffee, she's gonna have it. Mm-hmm. Why would this person next to me think anything about me drinking coffee? And you wouldn't be thinking about- Oh, I hope she feels okay drinking coffee in front of me.
Like, all of this- Right ... doesn't exist without the control of the, um, community that you both participated in. Like, even, like, I can remember when I was younger- Mm-hmm ... every time that I had coffee, like, that I wasn't supposed to, like, it would be with other Mormon kids that we'd be like, "Okay, we're both gonna have coffee, and we're not gonna tell anyone."
And I would never- ... like, do that in front of Mormon kids without their buy-in of we're all gonna do this. Like, I remember one time- Uh-huh ... after seminary, I was catching a ride with someone who was the stake president's daughter. And we went to- Oh ... Maverick to get hot chocolate, but she was like, "I, I like s- mixing my hot chocolate with my, with coffee."
And I was like- ... "That sounds delicious. I wanna do that, too." And I was like, "It's okay because the stake president's daughter is doing it." Like, we're fine. Yeah. We're in the clear. Okay. The next one is information control, which I think is a little bit easier to, um, talk about. So they, they list examples like deception, um- Mm-hmm
deliberately withholding information or distorting information or systemically lying. Um, minimizing or discouraging access to non-cult sources Mm-hmm ... compartmentalizing information into outsider and insider doctrines, um, encouraging spying on other members, or extensive use of cult-generated information and pro- propaganda, and unethical uses of confession.
Mm. Okay. So I think some of those I would say yes to. Like, I do think that deception or withholding information is- Mm-hmm ... a big one when it comes to, like, tithing. Like, what do you think is being withheld? Um, I don't think that they are transparent about where the tithing money goes and what is done with it.
I think that they are like, "These are the funds for the church, and it funds the church," or, "It funds- Mm-hmm ... the world that we are building as a church." Um, and when- Yeah ... when the Insan Pink whistleblower came out and said how much the church was worth and where they were storing it and what was going on with that money, I think that that was a shock to a lot of members.
I don't think that that was something that- Yeah ... they knew about beforehand. No, it was not. Um, that was pretty shocking. And I think that there are ethical ways to not disclose everything. For example- Mm-hmm ... the way that fast offerings are used. If the church discloses that 100% of your fast offerings are used in your community to support community members who are struggling, and this is who decides who is struggling and who gets what, which is typically a bishop- Uh-huh
I feel like that's ethical. You don't need to know that, um, we collected $500 and that all went to- Right ... you know, brother and sister so-and-so so that they can pay their electrical bill. Like, that- Right ... that I don't think needs to happen. But I do think that there needs to be, especially from tithing, which is the bigger fund, to say- Mm-hmm
"This is how much we collected in tithing this year. This is h- how much we paid out for this system. This is how much we paid out to build this temple. This is how much we paid out to ward youth programs. This is how much we paid to fund this political campaign," or, "This is how much- Right ... we paid in inv- investments, and here's where we're investing."
And, and I think that that is important. I think that that would be more ethical of the Church, and I would feel like they're less of a cult if that's what was going on. Um, yeah, I can see that. I, like, I would definitely like more disclosure about where and, and how tithing funds are used. And, um, like, I would appreciate that.
And I think that that's where, like- whistleblowers come in, right? Mm-hmm. Because, because it is, like the church is gonna have one idea of how much they should disclose. Mm-hmm. And different people are gonna have differents idea, d- different ideas on that scale of how much they should disclose. Where whistleblowers come in, I think it's like the membership would probably like to know this and- Mm-hmm
that this would be interesting information- Mm-hmm ... that the church is not, is not voluntarily disclosing. But on non-religious groups, there are laws around that disclosure, and what you- Right ... can collect and what you can spend it on, and how you have- Yeah ... to report your spending and who it has- Yeah ... to go to.
Yeah. I agree. I think that legally there needs to be more laws around, um, how that money is collected and reported. Yeah. And I do think that the collection of the money, like the behavioral control, right? The getting you to pay- Mm-hmm ... 10%, and then also on this end, not disclosing where that comes from, that combination is culty.
Yeah. Like I think that that's very culty. That's fair. And, and the fact that that is one of the things that has an explicit disciplinary action too. Right. Because you can't go to the temple without paying your tithing. Which is the ordinance that they say allows you to be sealed to your family. So, yeah.
Um, minimi- minimizing or discouraging access to non-cult sources of information, um, I think that they definitely do that. I think that they're all about anti-Mormon literature. Yeah. The fact that they even call it anti-Mormon literature is crazy. 'Cause that's number three is the compartmentalizing information into outsider and insider doctrines.
So there's, there's the doctrine, there's the church-approved sources, and then there's anti-Mormon literature, and there's not really a lot of in between. This... Okay, this is the thing, though, because, because social me- media has made this really interesting and co- and complicated, right? Mm-hmm. Because there's a lot of, of LDS creators- Mm-hmm There's a whole spectrum of creators that some are very, very, very pro, um, obedience, pro, uh...
I mean- Conservative ... obedient. Conservative. Okay. That's a good way to put it. Conservative in their belief. Not necessarily politically, but conservative- Right ... in their worship within the Mormon Church. Yeah, and then there are LDS creators and influencers that are very much more liberal in their interpretations of how to live and, and how to interpret the doctrine.
Yeah. But I do think that explicitly the prophet has come out and said to be careful of messages online. Yeah. Like, that's just good advice, right? Like, use your head. Mm-hmm. Um, I will say the fourth one I don't think that the church necessarily does is encourage spying on other members. No. I don't think so.
Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda. Yeah, like I think that they do that. And I think that they really spread out the different ways that they can meet the demographics within the church. Like, they have the Ensign, and then they have the woman's magazine that's for moms, and then they have what- whatever it's called that's like the children's magazine for kids, like the Friend.
They... Well, they have the Friend and the New Era, which is for youth, and then they have the Ensign that is for, for adults. They do put out a lot of materials. Mm-hmm. Um, and a lot of videos and a lot of, um- Paintings for your home and, um, podcasts- Yeah ... and music to listen to and t- like TV to watch. Like, you know, there's- Yeah
BYUtv, like... I mean, I would call these resources. They're not forced on you. I mean, but it's extensive use of it Yeah. Yeah, it is. Like, if you went through your house right now and counted how many paintings you have that are ones that you bought at- Painting's probably not a good example. Books would be a good example, but- Books is a good example.
But I'm thinking, like, every Mormon house I'm in has a picture of Jesus somewhere. That's probably true. Picture of the temple, picture of Jesus. Mm-hmm. So the last one is unethical use of confession, and while I don't agree with how the church sets up their confessions, which is just like their interviews, I don't think- Yeah
that it is an unethical use of it. I don't think that it's reported in ways that are unethical. Yeah. There's not, like, interrogations where they're dissolving your identity or boundaries. They're not, like, trying to plant false memories. I know that that has happened- No ... in some cases, that where they tell women that it's their fault that they got sexually assaulted or things like that.
At all. But I don't think that that's a regular practice. I do think that it does set up for it to be used unethical, but I don't think that that is, um, the main purpose of it. I also think that, like, they don't use confessions to disclose that information with other members. Yeah. Like, I'm thinking of, like, Scientology.
They're not using this to, like, hold it over you and control other aspects of your life. No, I don't think... I mean, like, that's one of those hard things about having a lay leadership, a leadership- Mm-hmm ... that's just made up out of... Because, because I do think that sometimes you get, um, a bishop or a stake president or somebody who does things that are not good, that are- Mm-hmm
you know, puts pressure on people in, in bad ways, but that is not what they're supposed to do. And if those things are discovered by, by people higher up, they're, um, they're told not to do those things- Yeah ... basically. And I will say the only other thing that I do think is unethical about the confessions is the fact that they won't disclose things that we have agreed on, or things that should be reported.
Like, like bishops are not mandatory reporters of anything. They are not- Yeah ... they don't tell you... Like, if you go in and confess to a bishop that you're abusing your child, they're not required to tell anyone. Yeah. And they're actually advised- That should be looked at as well ... not to. And the, um, yeah, I think that that's a huge problem that needs to be discussed.
And I do think it's unethical, but I don't think it's the way that this is defining of that, like it is used to specifically cl- uh, control the person. Yeah. I agree. So. Okay. The next one is thought control. Okay. And some of the things that it says for thought r- control is, requires members to internalize the group's doctrine as truth.
Mm-hmm. Um, changes person's name and identity Use of loaded language and cliches which construct knowledge. Uh, stops critical thoughts and reduces complexities into platitudes and buzzwords. That was the end of, like, using loaded language. So for me, that feels like very, like, 1984. Like, you know, when he's like, "Oh, we're using short speak," like- Yeah.
Um, yeah. So and then the fourth one is encourage only good and proper thoughts. Well, and like, if you look at, like, the FLDS when they would, like, keep sweet and obey, like, that's totally- Yeah ... what they're talking about. Yeah. Um, five is hypnotic techniques, which we don't really use a lot of. Um, six, memories are manipulated and false memories are created.
Seven, teaching thought stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive n- thoughts. So, like, that's like denial, chanting, meditating, praying. Mm-hmm. Um, eight is rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, or constructive criticism. Nine is forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy.
Mm-hmm. And 10, label- labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful. And 11 is instilling a new map of reality. So out of that list, do any, like, immediately stand out to you? The one... 'Cause you were saying about praying. Mm. To me, that's more, that would be more like rote prayers. Do you know what I mean?
Mm. Like, which is not what we do in the church, right? In, I think in the church, that's a thing that I appreciate, is that we- Mm ... I mean, we do have our standard, like, nourish and strengthen phrases and stuff like that. Bless us with moisture. With moisture, oh. That's one of my worst. I love that one. So we have our phrases that we use, but we don't have rote prayers that are supposed to, like, stop thoughts.
Or, or insert thoughts, I guess. Like, that's the other thing is, like, I think of rote prayer as similar to, like, manifestation work or, like- Hmm ... chanting work. Like affirmations kind of thing? Yeah. Where, like, you say it, and then you, you think that throughout the day. Mm. However- We are daughters of our eternal Father who loves us and we love Him There is that Like, there are lots of things that we repeat or we memorize.
Yeah Um, like seminary, which is what high schoolers do, uh, really focuses on memorizing scriptures. Yeah. Um- And we are con- and encouraged to memorize scriptures. Um... And the articles of faith. Um, so there are things, there are themes every year that, like, people memorize, especially for, like, the youth. Yeah.
So I can see that. Um, so what stands out as harmful, as specifically harmful on that list to you? What's particularly harmful to me is the... Like a lot of these, I think you could lump together to rejecting criticism or, like, making it so that no criticism- Mm ... is valid. And then also the l- like labeling other belief systems as illegitimate.
Like in the church you hear a lot that, um, other churches have pieces of the truth, but the LDS church is the only one that has the full truth or- For sure. Yeah, I mean, it creates an in-group versus an out-group, for sure, and, and possibly even like, like a we're better than in-group, right? Like, it's better if you're in the church.
Yeah. So, um, Stephen Hassan, he... Like, his entire dissertation is on YouTube, so you can watch it. Mm. But one of the things he talks about around this part is about how you have an identity within the cult and outside of the cult, and eventually you just become the identity in the cult. Mm. So there are things like changing names.
Like famously, the Walt Disney Company, part of their groupthink that they create is everyone is, goes by their first name. There's no Mister, Missus, Doctor. Like there's- Oh ... no formalities, and there never have been. That's why everyone's name tag, even if you work in the corporate office, is their first name, and like Walt Disney was always Walt, you know?
And that's like the m- mythos around that- Okay ... and your identity at that time. I feel like when you go to church, and specifically the Mormon church, at church you're not Kari. You're Sister Bates. Mm-hmm. And I have watched people that know you as Kari in church call you Sister Bates. Okay. And I had a friend here, and I'll change her name, but we were, we were joking about something, and I...
She said something churchy, and I was like, "Okay, Sister Brown," and she was like, "Don't say that." She was like, "That just triggered something in me." She's like, "That just woke up a sleeper-" Oh. "... sleeper cell in me of like, you know, an identity that you are within this culture." Yeah. And to me, that's taken a step farther in the temple where you're literally given a new name.
Yeah. That's interesting, though, because, like, that's not ever used anywhere ever at all. Yeah. But if you think about like in cults, like okay, for example, like Elizabeth Smart, when she was kidnapped- Uh-huh ... he wouldn't call her Elizabeth. He gave her a new name, and he only called her by that name. Oh, yeah.
Like that is like a control factor. And, and I think that the church isn't to that extreme. Right. But it is like, it does... It is giving you a different identity to associate with. Yeah, interesting. And, and again, like, there are cults of corporations and cults of, um- Right ... politics and cults of religion, and, and everything exists on a spectrum, which is why I use the Disney example, because the Disney example is not particularly harmful.
It is just trying to create a company culture. Right. And I think that that's an important point to make about all of this, is that to say something is a cult just has such a negative connotation, right? Mm-hmm. It just really truly does- Mm-hmm ... because of the extreme cults that have caused major harm. Mm-hmm.
But like all in-groups and out-groups, like we're just kind of a tribal species. Yeah. You know? And I'm not trying to minimize it or anything or say that, that there's not harm in it, but, but all human groups I do think are, are cultish to a... Like you were saying on one of the episodes about SoulCycle, like, you know?
Yeah. No, and that's a good example too, because like I, when I was looking into this and I was talking about like rewarding behavior- Uh-huh ... like it is a corporate... Like they have great marketing. Like I want to go. I'm at my 96th ride, and at my 100th ride I'll get a little card. Actually, I think I have, I have my 50th ride card hung up here.
Yeah. You can't really see it, but it's up there. I'll get a card that says, "Happy 100th ride." Sure. Which means that at $40 a class we're celebrating that I've spent $4,000 with them. And I'm so excited because also guess what? I'll get to blow out the candle when it's time. Like they have little candles in there- Right
with like a specific scent, and there's like a part in the ride where they turn all the lights off- Uh-huh ... and you'll blow off, out the ca- candles. And like if it's your birthday or if like something special is going on or it's your 100th ride or something- Uh-huh ... they'll come up and let you blow out the candle.
And I also... Sorry, I'm gonna move this. I have a picture of me also blowing out the candle on my- Oh. So again, like- It's not inherently bad to have like- Right ... these thi- but you have to be able to recognize them and analyze them, and you also- Yeah ... that's very hard to do while you're within the group. I just think that that's, that's so important because, I mean, even if the church does identify with a lot of the things on here, it doesn't necessarily make it bad.
What makes it bad is when it's making you do things that would go against your conscience, that you don't think are right, that would, you know, that you naturally- Mm-hmm. Like, it's not bad to be a part of a group. We agree. Yeah. But where that, like, infringes on your individuality, you have to be aware of, and that's like- Exactly
why I think the, the second spectrum is also important- Yeah ... in analyzing all this. And so I think that that's part of it. Like, I mean, as far as, like, getting on here and talking about whether or not the church is a cult, to me, like, that's part of what makes it not a cult, is if we can look at it and say, "Oh, what things about it are culty, and what things about it are, um, are harmful?"
And let's talk about those things and analyze those things and not get sucked into something that's, that's exercising undue influence on us, right? Like, that's- Mm-hmm ... that's... Like, I just think it's so important to be able to, to think through things critically and examine- Yeah ... our behaviors critically.
And if we don't do that, then that's kind of how things end up being harmful and being- Yeah. I wanna put a pin in that, though, and save that for the end. Oh, okay. 'Cause I do have- Oh ... more to say about this. Mm. But I did wanna talk about the name and identity, 'cause we talked about the name, we talked about the associated identity.
I think- ... the church does other things to control your identity or reframe your identity, um, particularly the patriarchal blessing. Oh, okay. Yeah. Because for anyone who's not Mormon and doesn't know, Mormons have an outside, what would you call it? It's not an ordinance in that you're not, like, making, like, a covenant with God.
You're not making a promise to do something. You're not, like, required to get a patriarchal blessing to go to the Celestial Kingdom. But it is like the oracle of the Mormon Church in that there is one patriarch for the stake, and you set up a meeting. Mm-hmm. You have a short meeting with him, and then he gives you a blessing that basically tells you about your premortal life and your future, and that's insane.
Like- That's insane ... it's very seer revelation-type stuff that I am surprised has stuck along so, Interesting. I've never thought of it that way. Every single time I love to go get my palm read or get, like, um- Uh-huh ... tarot cards read, and I feel like it's the same thing.
Huh. That's so weird. I've never thought of it that way. And also it gives you- ... like, traits. Like for me, I was told things like what tribe of Israel I belong to and, um, what my job in this world was to do and, like, what traits, uh, I carried on from my pre-existence. And- Mm-hmm ... some of those things are things that, like, I think are put on all Mormon women, like being loving and caring and gentle.
Like, some of those things were surprising. I don't have it anymore. I wish I could read on it and reflect, but- Mm-hmm ... it is interesting that it's kind of like giving you characteristics that you should. Yeah. Like, we're not just saying through our doctrine these are characteristics that we value, these are values that you should have.
We're also telling you, "And actually, you don't know this 'cause you don't remember your premortal life, but this is how you are." Interesting. I mean, I have to think about that more. The other thing is the idea of, like, who we are as people and as humans. Like- Mm-hmm ... the church tells you, like, this is what humans are.
And I think... Like, I don't wanna speak too much on the temple, because I've only seen a recording that was a sneaky recording of it. Yeah. So I've never participated. Mm-hmm. But it does tell... Like, it seems to create a mythology around who we are as, as beings and, and our existence and what's meaningful about our existence.
I mean, yeah, that's what religion does, right? It gives- Yeah ... us a, an idea of who we are and what our purpose is and what our destiny is, I guess. Yeah. It also, like, the last one is instill a new map of reality, and that is the map of reality is the plan of salvation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember one time you were telling me that you were talking to a family member whose, like, opinion you really respect and is very faithful in the church, and you said that they said that it doesn't even matter if we're, you know, homeless, if we're on the street, because if we're living righteously, like, we will be rewarded in the next life.
And I was like, "Yeah, but, like, that's such a different reality than the reality," which is that, like, it does matter- Yeah ... if you're homeless. Well, I mean, this is the thing, because reality, like, literally is subjective, right? Things do not have meaning without us giving them meaning. Yeah. And so I, I may give things a different meaning than you give them, and that doesn't mean that your way is better or my way is better.
Mm-hmm. Like, I think it's important to look at those obj- like, to the degree that we can look at them obje- objectively and look- Mm-hmm ... at, again, like we've talked about a few different times, by their fruits you shall know them, right? That- Mm-hmm ... that we have to look at, like, what that creates for us and other people.
Mm-hmm But reality really truly is subjective. I mean- Yeah ... I know that makes me sound like a crazy person to say that, but- No, and it's even, like, subjective as far as you and I can see the same thing happen and have different realities about what happened. Like, you know- Yeah ... like, there are those objective things, but, like, we just know that about people, that people are- are- are seeing reality through multiple filters about who- Yeah
they are, who the subject is to them, like, things like that. Um, I guess the last thing, like, with thought control that I really had was the use of prayer and how often we use prayer in the Mormon Church, um, because we pray before every meal, which I think is- Mm-hmm ... somewhat common in evangelical religions.
Mm-hmm. But I remember when I was in high school, there was, like, a challenge to pray every hour on the hour, and I did that, which meant that I was constantly thinking about the church or prayer because I was keeping- Mm-hmm ... track of if I had prayed or I was praying, like, the entire day. And, like, when they start implementing things like that or, like...
Yeah. That to me i- is extreme. I remember when we were doing our stories and you said that and, 'cause, like, I've never done that in my life. I've never had that- Mm ... experience, but that does seem really extreme to me. Yeah, and it wasn't even, like, a compelling you to do that in, like, the way of, like, you would be punished if you didn't.
But it was like- Because I had all these other beliefs around the belief- Uh-huh ... that it was important to be as faithful as possible, and that, like, the ways that I was feeling as a person were because I wasn't faithful enough, I would s- then acting- Mm ... upon this e- additional- Yeah ... challenge that they, they thought to let me know that I could do, you know?
Yeah. Like, you're trying to prove yourself kind of thing maybe. Yeah, or try to, like, even align myself even more to the church. Um- Very interesting. Yeah. As far as, like, praying over everything, we never have prayed over every meal. Like, we didn't pray over breakfast or lunch, or we never, we didn't really pray in- We've prayed over breakfast.
We have, but not on a regular basis. Like, if the whole family is gathering together as a meal, and I still enjoy that. I think it's kind of a beautiful ritual to take a minute and say, "I'm, I'm grateful- Mm-hmm ... that we have food. I'm grateful that we- Mm-hmm ... have family around," and that kind of stuff. And, and so, I mean, I still kind of do that even when you guys come out for, if we come together for dinners and stuff.
Like, I don't wanna force it on anybody, but I enjoy that ritual part of it, that just kind of, oh- Yeah ... we've prepared this meal together. Let's take a pause and acknowledge. But what I like about that is the individual choice to opt into that ritual, which I think is what we're talking about overall on this podcast, about, like- Right
not feeling compelled to do things, but doing things that you find value in. Um- Yeah ... because, like, I can think, you know, we have this ritual to pray before every m- meal, and a ritual that surrounding that in the Mormon church is that the eldest priesthood holder should either pray or call upon- Right ... who says the blessing.
And, like, I can remember, like, moments where whoever's the oldest priesthood holder in the room has the power of me of I've been a brat today, or I don't seem spiritual enough. Let's make Kimberly pray. Oh. And, like- Yeah, I don't like that ... that sucked. I hated that. And like- Yeah ... I, I remember that they'd sometimes pick on whoever, like needed to pray, I guess, and- Needed to be humbled.
Yeah, and, um, and I remember there was a girl in Young Women's who when she was called on she just said no. She started saying no. She's like, "No, thanks." And I, at the time, was like, "That is so rude." And now I'm like, no, like, why was that rude to do? Like- Yeah ... yeah, you should be able to say, "Yeah, no, I'm good.
Somebody else pray."
Yeah. Which one? Sure. So the last one is emotional control. Okay. That's the E. Um, manipulate and narrow the range of feelings. Some emotions are deemed as evil, wrong, or selfish. Mm-hmm. Um, teach emotion-stopping techniques, like to block feelings of, like anger or doubt. Um, making a person feel that the problem is always their own fault and never the leader or the group's fault.
Mm-hmm. Promoting feelings of guilt or unworthiness, um, such as social guilt, historical g- uh, guilt. Uh, your family is deficient, your affiliations are unwise. Um, instilling fear, such as fear of thinking independently, um, losing your salvation, being shunned by the group or others' disapproval. Um, extremes of emotional highs and lows, like love bombing and praising one moment and then declaring like you're a horrible sinner the next.
Mm-hmm. That's what, that's what it says. Um, ritualistic and sometimes public confessions of sins, and phobia of indoctrination, including irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader's authority Okay. So what stands out to you from that? Well, tell me because you were saying something about love bombing and then guilt, and did that happen to you a lot, do you feel like?
No. And I will say that I do think that the church is guilty of love bombing, but love bombing is also sometimes, like, just good stewardship, right? Like- Yeah ... I think that it is actually a pro that as an organization, if somebody new comes in, that everyone says hi. I actually was just telling my friend about this, 'cause she's like, "Could I just go to a Mormon temple?"
And I was like, "You couldn't go to the temple, but you could go to a church." Uh-huh. And she's like, "Well, would they think I was weird if I went to the ch- church?" And I was like, "Let me tell you, the moment that you enter that church, someone would spot you, realize you were new, and come up and say hi to you."
Like, that is- Yeah ... exactly what would happen. And I think that's a pro. I think that it's a good thing. I think that it's also our human nature to try and seek out that again and again, so sometimes when you, like, stop being the new person or stop being- Yeah ... who's the most catered to person in the room, then that can make you vulnerable, and I think that, like- Yeah
like, one of the things that they say about this model is you have to also think about it in the context of what is the most power that can be exerted and what does this look like when it meets a vulnerable person? Yeah. So when I think of someone who's just lost their family or someone who is at a very low and, like, needs a community- Mm-hmm
that is something that is, like, preying on that v- vulnerability. And again- Yeah ... I don't think it's inherently bad, but I do think- Mm-hmm ... that, like, when you have a vulnerable person and then they meet, like, this kind of, like, love bombing of, like, "Come to our activity," or, "We'll come clean your house," or things like that that the church does do- Sure.
Yeah ... that then you're more likely to be like, "Do you know what? I will be baptized. I will-" Right. Like, you're more compelled to do these things and not think as critically about them because of all the good you're getting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that that's very real because, because as far as, like, missionary work and stuff, the missionaries do much better in countries that have- More needy populations, right?
Mm-hmm. In, in third-world countries where people are more vulnerable and have more needs. And I don't think that the church even sees that as a bad thing, right? Because the church- No ... sees itself as bringing this wonderful gift into the lives of these people. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and yes, when they're at a vulnerable place, which is, which is really, like it's really hard because I've heard that criticized as far as, um, like, you know, the church attacks people when they've lost a loved one or, or anything like that and- Mm-hmm
and like from the side of the church, they don't feel like they're attacking people. They feel like, "Oh, this is something you need and we're offering it to you," right? This, this wonderful gift rather than, than- Mm-hmm ... um, you know, "Oh, we're gonna get them w- when they're down," kind of mwah-ha-ha thing, so. I think that that's real useful that they make the members feel like, "This is something I'm doing to help this person," when I tell them about the plan of salvation when they've lost someone and I say, "Oh, you can be with your family forever.
Here's how." But I think that that is an emotional manipulation, uh, to get more membership. Okay. Well, tell me who you think is the they that's making the members feel that way? I think church leadership, especially when they are coming out with like missionary tactics specifically- Mm-hmm ... and when they're saying- Right, because, like, there are, there are cults and there are religious communities that are not interested in expanding their membership.
Right. And they have different goals, and they have different ways to meet those goals. The church is very interested in expanding their membership. Right. And we disagree about why. But I think that when they are using, like... I mean, one of the th- the criticisms it points out is that, uh, the church uses lots of corporate language.
They use, like, interviews, and they use, um, presidency. And so, like, when they're giving these, like, ways to outreach that are- that read the same way as, like, um, a corporate marketing memo- Okay ... that that's when it feels that way. Like, it feels manipulative. Oh, I see. And I remember specifically being taught that I should be looking for people who have lost f- family members- Mm
to minister to. Yeah. I mean, I, I guess that that is one of those things that we disagree on, because I don't think that there's, like, a secret leadership group that's just like, "We just want to get more members, make more money, and to gain in power." Like, I just... I don't believe that that exists. Um, I think that even the top leadership believes that we are offering something that's going to make your life better.
I think they wouldn't push so hard if that was it, but that is why. Yeah. That's what I feel. Yeah. Okay. But some other things that stout me is this ri- ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins. Because I don't think that- Mm ... we have, like, public confession of sins the same way that you might see it in, like, other cults.
But I do think that what's not listed here, which is interesting, is, like, public testimonials. Mm. The way that we have fast and testimony meeting. Yeah. I think that that is a cult-like behavior, especially because we do it when we're all starving. Like, we fast- Yeah ... and then during that meeting, while we're fasting, we get up and we cry about how much we appreciate Joe Smith and the church, and how we know it's true.
Mm-hmm. And, like- Interesting ... again, back to that stating of this is a truth, not a belief, which is, like, the thought control. I felt that before. Like, okay, am I
w- feeling emotional because I'm hungry, or am I feeling emotional because I really am feeling the spirit here or whatever? But- Yeah ... again, just something to, to think about and be aware of. I don't think it's a bad thing to share what you believe about things. Mm-hmm. I do think, and it's almost become nonsensical to me, the, the way that we get up and say, "I know.
I know-" Mm-hmm ... "that this is true. I know that this is..." Mm-hmm. Like, okay, tell me how you know. Tell me what experiences you've had. Because just because you know something doesn't make it true. Yeah. Um- Or at least it doesn't make it true universally. It makes it true to you, but not- Yeah ... not necessarily true for me.
Um, and the last thing that I had that I really wanted to focus on was the phobia of indoctrination in this piece, because what they say with this BITE model, right, is if you're in a cult, you're not going to understand you're in a cult. Like, nobody feels like they're in a cult. Mm-hmm. So the recommendation is that you should take some time off, whether that's weeks or months- Yeah
where you are physically removed from the group and not dependent on the group, and then you should think through what you feel like is true and what you feel like is right and what you think is appropriate for you in your life. Mm-hmm. And the church specifically doesn't want you to do that. They like you to go to church every Sunday, and if you aren't in church or you seem inactive, they send people to make sure that you're receiving contact from the group.
Mm-hmm. And it's not the same way as, like, when you leave another cult and they, like, intimidate you or they, like, kidnap you or, like, like these extreme- Right ... cults do, but I do think that it is cultish, and I think that, like, the church creates this structure where there is no room for you to step away and think about it.
And in fact, how you get into the church if you're not born into the church is you go have these missionary meetings, and the missionary meetings go through until you come to church and you are baptized. And then past baptism, they'll still meet with you regularly, and, like, the way that people are told to find out if the Book of Mormon is true is to read the entire book and then pray about it.
So after you've been, like, reading and studying it, then you should think about it instead of, like, thinking, "Let me take a couple steps back- Mm-hmm ... and think about this." Right. Yeah. It's interesting, 'cause I, I do think... like, I do think it's healthy to step away, you know? And that isn't enc- is not encouraged, and like you said, if I didn't show up, I don't know if it would be as big of a deal now, 'cause I'm not as central to the ward as I used to be.
Mm-hmm. But I do think if I didn't show up for a few weeks that people would start to be like, "Hmm, where's Kari? What's going on? Let's check on her." Right? Mm-hmm. But I do think that, that is, is healthy to evaluate, and there, and there have been times- Well, that's interesting Because I have kind of always held myself to, like, I need to be at church, and there were times that it was really, really painful for me to go to church.
Mm-hmm. Particularly when people were stepping away from church, and when just different things were happening, happening in our family that didn't seem like the ideal. And it was really- Mm-hmm ... painful for me to go, and I went anyways, and I made myself go anyways. So- Mm-hmm ... that's kinda culty. Yeah. But... And again, it's just, it's not black and white.
Like, there, there are things that I do because they're important to do even though I don't want to do them, like going to the gym. Yeah. And I know that people feel about church that same way, but- Mm-hmm ... I'm glad that we can at least have the conversation, and- Yeah ... a few ways that it might, at least a few ways that it might be culty so that you can be aware of them.
Yeah. Right? I think that that would be, like, the takeaway that I would say about this is, like, evaluate what you're doing. Like, pay attention- Mm-hmm ... to what you're doing and, and question it, because I think that there are so many good things about the church. I really do. Mm-hmm. Like, we went today and, um, there was a little girl going on her mission.
Mm-hmm. And, um, and her whole family had come over from Salt Lake, like the- Mm-hmm ... the whole thing was packed, and it was just this big celebration of her, which is not how it's supposed to be because it's, you know, 'cause sacrament meeting is supposed to be focused on Christ, and Mm-hmm ... there's like... And we, we tend to kind of hero worship, but I am just like, "This is really beautiful for her.
I'm glad that she has- Mm-hmm ... all of these people loving in her and supporting her in this thing that she's doing, and celebrating her." Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I wish that we could extend that to other things. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't limited to just these behaviors. Like- Mm-hmm ... can we celebrate kids that are going to college?
Can we celebrate kids that are entering the military? Can we celebrate kids that are doing different good things? Mm-hmm. Why does it have to be only this one thing? And so, like, I think for the people that it works really well for, I think it's a- Mm ... beautiful way of life. Mm. I think where we run into problems with it is when, when it's only enforcing these, these specific be- good behaviors, right?
When it's only- Well- When, like anything that falls outside of the parameters of- I was gonna say, like, it's, it's on that spectrum, right? Of like, if you are practicing in a way that is ethical, you are on the side where, like, individuality, individuality is embraced, and where you feel like you can have your own conscience, and where you feel like your leaders are acting trustworthy, and they are accountable, and, and it's- Healthy for everyone.
And when we're on the side of, like, there's things like guilt and there's things like, you know, expectations that you act a certain way that feels like we're, you know, cloning ourselves. Um- Mm-hmm ... or, you know, where there's elitism, that's where it's, it's unhealthy, and I do think that the church gets to a point where it's unhealthy, where the leaders- Yeah
aren't acting, um, trustworthy, where there's, like, lots of deception or secretiveness. And I, I think that if you are gonna participate in this church, that it is important to evaluate how you're going to do it ethically. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that, and to be aware of the ways that it can be causing real serious harm to some people.
Mm-hmm. I think it's an important conversation to have, I really do, just because I think, um, to, to think that we're immune from cult behaviors is really dangerous, right? I think when we think we're immune from these behaviors, then we're, we're treading in- into dangerous waters. There is, uh, another person on TikTok that talks about cults a lot, and she was in a cult.
And she talks about how researchers will be like, "Oh, I'm gonna go investigate this cult. I'm gonna go, you know, see it from the inside out." Uh-huh. And she's like, "You will join the cult. Like, do not think that you are above- Yeah ... or sm- or smarter than joining a cult. You will join a cult." Yeah. And you won't think you're in one.
No, it's so bizarre. Yeah. Okay. Have you watched the, um, Trust Me, I'm a Prophet? Oh, I started it. Oh my gosh. So traumatizing. Uh, like, my, my first impression is we all want belonging, and we all wanna feel like where we find the most peace is where we're right, you know? Right. And, like, we also are all looking for, like, a quick and easy peace.
Like, I don't wanna say it like that exactly. That's... You know, but what I'm trying to say is, like, if I can find comfort in this world of chaos- Yes ... then I want to stay in that comfort and feel like I'm right in that. Mm-hmm. So, if that means that this man that's offering me freedom and comfort is a prophet, then sure, he's a prophet.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'll wholeheartedly believe that 'cause I want it to be true. Yes. Yeah. Belonging and meaning- Yeah ... those two things, I think are what kind of gets, get us sucked into making compromises with our own consciences. Mm-hmm, and sacrificing our individuality. Like, human beings are so fascinating and crazy and scary and amazing.
Like, because there are bad people, right? There are- Mm-hmm ... are bad people that have intentions to do bad things. Mm-hmm. But also most people... Like, I want to believe that most people are good. Yeah. I want to believe that most people have good intentions. I do believe that. I don't wanna believe that anyone who has gotten into any authoritarian type of situation isn't a good person.
Like, good people get manipulated all the time. Um, how can we protect ourselves against that? Yes. That might be a discussion for another day, but how do good people become authoritarians? That's another interesting question because... Are they just always really evil people? Yeah. I've read a book that was a little bit about that, but- Yeah.
Yeah. We don't have time to get into it now, but that would be- No ... a really interesting talk. Because I was thinking about, like, that, that, that the guy in this video, I do think that- Mm-hmm ... he believes that he was a prophet. So what in his life led him to believe that and- I don't think that he thinks he's a prophet unless it's like...
Like, I think there might be a mental health issue there. Maybe. But I do think that he thinks that he is taking care of this group of people, so it's okay if he says he's a prophet to be able to take care of them the best way. Mm-hmm. You're gonna have to watch the rest of it and see, and we'll have to- Okay
discuss it. Okay. Maybe we'll do that one next. I don't know. All right. But yeah, this one's going along, so. Thank you for having this conversation with me. Yeah. Very interesting. Thank you. I love you. I love you, too. Talk to you soon. See you later.