Hi, I'm Kari.
And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Cocoa, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith
We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. So what is your testimony about this week?
My testimony is about dating and dating intentionally.
So me and my boyfriend, we've been doing this thing for a long time where, like, we switch off weekends, so one weekend he's in charge of what to do, and one weekend I'm in charge of what to do. And, like, I don't do anything that, like, he would hate, but it's really freeing to be like, "Nope, this is my plan and we're gonna go do the thing that I wanna do."
So it was my weekend this weekend, and, like, he was such a good sport. Like, we went to a place I saw on TikTok, a restaurant, and we waited in line for, like, an hour to get food. Oh, wow. And the food was not worth the wait or the price, I'm not gonna lie. Oh. But it was fun to just, like, sit and talk, and we've been doing this for a while, and it's really good for, like, having intentional time together, and then also- Yeah
for, like, seeing the city. Like, we've, we've lived in a few different cities together, so it's nice to have a reason to be like, "Oh, I've been wanting to check out this museum. Let's go to the museum." Or, or even, like, kind of the pressure of like, "Oh, it's my weekend, I have to plan something." Mm-hmm. "I wanna go to this park.
Let's get bagels and go to this park," that kind of thing. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's been fun. Yeah. Relationship building skills. Good job. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. That makes me think I- your dad and I should be better a little bit about it. This is so funny 'cause I think it was actually, like, in one of the general conference talks or something, they came out and talked about dating your spouse, and, like, you and Dad started, like, really making date night intentional.
Mm-hmm.
And so I kind of took that into my relationships and was like, "No, like, even if we move in together, we have to go on dates." Mm. But he was the one that came up with the idea of like, we should switch off weekends because then it's like we're not trying to agree on something to do. Like, I'm just like- Yeah
"I have a plan. Be ready this time." Like- Yeah ... "This is what we're doing. Don't eat dinner. We're gonna have a big dinner." Like, you know, that kind of thing.
Yeah. That's funny, though, that you're like... Because they said it in general conference talks. It's not bad advice. It's not bad advice, but it's just funny 'cause it's...
To me, it was just like if they hadn't said it at general conference talks, we probably wouldn't have worked on it. Which, you know.
Yeah. I think that's kind of a thing we keep coming to is, like, sometimes you get so focused on your eternal life or, like, doing what the church says that, like, you forget to maintain the life that you have. Yeah. Or, like, those good practices. When the church is like, "No, actually you should do this," then you're like, "Okay," that's like where it converges- Yeah ... and you do it.
It's like a good reminder, right? Because... Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I am going to share my testimony of slow breakfasts. Like, I almost never eat breakfast.
I just don't. No. I don't have the time or the effort or, and I don't enjoy breakfast, right? Like, I don't like having food on my stomach in the morning. You enjoy half a banana and a glass of milk. I... That is my favorite breakfast always. That's funny that you remember that. Um- Of course. But I do enjoy once in a while just taking time and making breakfast, and Dad and I will make breakfast together and, um, it's funny 'cause we were cooking biscuits and gravy this morning.
I do make good biscuits and gravy, just for the record. And- That's good ... um, and Dad won't let me cook the gravy anymore. He always cooks the gravy, which is nice. But, um, but yeah, just kind of fun to, to have kind of a lazy morning and cook breakfast together and, um, and enjoy that together, so that's my testimony.
That's a fun little moment this week.
I do like we make biscuits and gravy, and I am disappointed every ti- time I try to order that somewhere, and I'm like- Right ... "Well, this isn't, this isn't right."
I mean, to be fair, it, uh, it's because it is not a really good-for-you meal kit. I use half and half for the gravy and it's like-
It's good for your soul.
It's good for, uh, your soul. Yeah. We don't eat it very often, but-
No ...
on occasion. I do love it. Yeah, definitely comfort food. So, so yeah. So what are we talking about today?
So today, I wanted to talk about EFY and kind of church youth culture in general. Mm-hmm. But just starting off, what do you remember about EFY or when do you remember being aware of EFY?
Did you go when you were a kid?
I did not go when I was a kid, but I did go to... I went to a theater camp at BYU. They had a... I think it was, like, six weeks long. But, but it was quite a while, and we did a whole production, right? We put on a play, and it was really fun. Like, I really had a good time there.
When do you remember, like, EFY specifically?
So they did have EFY when I was in high school, but I didn't go. I think that they kind of developed the program more by the time you guys were old enough to go to it. And so, like, it was really popular by the time you guys started to become teenagers. And so, you know, like, I, I just thought it would be really good for you to have a place to go where you could meet other young people that were not just, like, the same people that you'd gone to school with from the time that you were little.
And yeah, so it was a big deal to me to try to send you guys.
So I looked this up a little bit, and EFY started in 1976, which was way- Oh ... sooner than I thought. Like, that's way earlier. Yeah. But the first session in 1976 only had 172 participants- Mm ... and 15 counselors. And actually, John, by the way, wrote his master's thesis at BYU on the history of EFY.
That tracks somehow.
I read it just to, like, s- I was curious. It's available- Oh ... if you wanna read it. Um, I also had never read, like, um, a documentation-type, um, master's thesis like that. Like, it was really interesting- Oh ... to, like, I don't know, like BYU and the church are so hand-in-hand in preserving church history.
Right. So, like, hearing his, like, argument for, like, why we need to preserve this part of church history was really interesting. Mm. Especially since we're discussing it because it was so influential on my life. So EFY, for those who don't know, it is a church-affiliated program, so it's run by BYU, but not necessarily the church, and it is made by LDS members, so not anyone who is in any leadership capacity in the church per se.
Like, it is just members coming together. It's a program for, um, youth from the age of 14 to 18. It's a five-day program, so it doesn't go over the Sabbath, so you come on Monday, you stay, and you leave on Saturday, so you can be home in time for church on Sunday again. Typically, it's hosted on campuses, so it started on BYU campus, on the BYU campus in Provo, and it expanded to Idaho and Hawaii, and then it also expanded to other, like, other colleges, especially Utah.
So it, it expanded globally eventually. But when I went, I went to SUU one year, and then I went to Utah State another year, so it wasn't just at BYU. I did hear that the BYU one was, like, a little more intense, but- What do you mean? That's a- Explain what you mean by intense. Like, that they were more, um, harsh on the rules, which is crazy to me- Mm-hmm
'cause the rules were already really harsh. So my history with EFY is everyone that I grew up with went, and I had no clue what it was, and everyone was talking about it, and I came home and I was like, "I wanna go to EFY. Like, how do we go to EFY?" Because it, like you said, it was not cheap, and also I had an older sibling who was also of the age group to go, so it was like we both had to go.
Hmm. So I went, I think, as soon as I was 14- Mm ... was my first year, and then my second year was when I was 15. And actually I found, um, a site that lists, like, all of the, um, themes, because they started having- oh, yeah ... themes in 1982. So I found, like, my years, and I remember the themes. My theme for, was 2011 was Believe, Hope, Endure.
Mm-hmm. And 2012, which was Arise and Shine Forth. And to me, EFY is everything about youth culture in the Mormon church, because- Hmm ... it's just so heightened there. They have rules, like in Rexburg they had a rule that you couldn't have shorts that weren't higher than the knee, like they had to be below the knee.
Hmm. I remember my counselor my second year, like- Uh-huh ... they c- they hand out T-shirts for the first day, and you all wear them. Right. And they're like, they have the theme on them. It's, it's a big deal. And the short, the shirts that year were white. Mm. And we, of course, good Mormon girls, had our tank tops to wear under our white shirts.
Mm-hmm.
And she said, "No, because then they can see the tank top lines." And our counselor wanted us to wear cap sleeves under our T-shirts in the middle of summer. Oh, wow. We didn't. We didn't. Like, that was- You did not No. Like, I was like, "Well, this is what I have." And then she just kinda shamed me a little, but what are you gonna do?
Hmm.
It was just, the rules were insane, but it just felt like such a heightened emotional state because for me, it was the first time that I was so far away from home alone. Like- Yeah ... I had been to church camps, but that's with other people that you grew up with, and your parents' friends are there because those are your leaders.
This was like- Right ... leaders I didn't know, all new people that didn't know me. They keep you up really late. They wake you up really early. Um, so you kind of have these heightened emotions, and then you're just, like, studying scripture and then hanging out with kids, and, like, it's just, like, insanity. And I don't think that, like, this is particular to the Mormon Church, because there's other church camps that sound very similar- Hmm
and, like, are playing on your emotions, but it is, like, separating you from your life and making you have, like, perfect practice for a week- Mm-hmm ... and then sending you home. Yeah. I don't know.
Interesting. So tell me, like, did you have a good time, though? Did you enjoy it?
Yeah. I really enjoyed it. It's, it's hard to say, like, enjoyed.
Like, I had fun. Uh-huh. But do you remember the first year that you picked me up from EFY, and we were supposed to go school shopping? Um. We had the biggest fight in the world. Like, what happened was I had lost a contact that morning- Oh ... and I, like, said goodbye to all my friends, whatever. I was crying, and we had to go school shopping 'cause we lived in a town where there weren't malls.
Yeah. And, and also this was pre-Amazon, so that's- Right ... how we got clothes. Like, I can't remem- like, you were upset about my attitude because, like, I was tired and didn't wanna do it. Mm-hmm. And you said something, and you cursed at me. Oh, yeah. And I lectured you. I was like, "I just spent five days feeling the spirit, and you're bringing me down."
Oh, I do remember that. I do remember that. That's so funny. Oh my gosh, yeah. That's so funny.
And, like, I feel like the church kinda does this sometimes of, like- Mm ... putting kids in a position to police their parents. Like, say, like, I would never, like, if I have kids, I wouldn't want them to, like, have a blessing unless, like, I had a lot of control over that blessing because a lot of times, like, when non-members have their kids blessed, they'll say, "And please be an example to your parents."
Like- Right ... and I hate that. Like, but, but I was kind of in that position, the idea of, like, because you are in the church, no matter what else your parents know or might know or whatever- Mm-hmm ... you are the one that's the example because you're doing what God wants. Yeah. It's very narcissistic. Like, it's, it's interesting because I can definitely see it from the church side, right?
As- Mm-hmm ... as far as if you're gonna be a member of the church and your family is not gonna be, then you need to be a good example. But that is- Yeah ... a weird position to put kids in, for sure.
Yeah. I, I think that there are lots of times where the church brings members together to make them feel so much like a peculiar people- Uh-huh
against the rest of the world, and I just- Yeah ... felt like this was, like, a heightened version of that. Like, I get from the church's side, they're like, "We wanna bring everyone together so that you have a chance to meet other youth, and you have a chance to connect with other people that are Mormon." But, like, we've kind of touched on how, like, there's this anxiety around being perfect and trying to reach, like, that- Mm-hmm
perfection. And I think at EFY, because my only job was to be doing these church activities, like, we studied scripture every day, then we sat in classes, and then, like, we had fun events, but it was all, like, very church regulated. Yeah. And so I feel like it set me in a really anxious spot where I felt like I had achieved this perfection to a certain level that I could not possibly ma- maintain at home.
Mm. Like, I can say, "I'm gonna get up every morning at 6:00 AM and study scriptures just like this," and that's not actually gonna happen, and life happens, and, like - Yeah ... you're not going to always, like- Yeah ... be interacting with people that way and be in that same position. Yeah. So it played a lot of... on those anxieties.
But it was, like, fun. Like, I think that if you get a bunch of teenagers together, they are going to have a good time. Yeah. And like I said, the structure of this is a lot of, like, getting up, scripture study, then you'll go eat together, then you'll have classes and, like, devotionals where you talk about different subjects around the church.
Like, I had one class that I went to that was, like, a scholar of some sort talking about- Mm-hmm ... how the Book of Mormon was literally real, and here's the historical artifacts that back that up. Yeah. That was an interesting one. There's, like- You know, a- any topic, and you get to pick some of your classes.
Some of them are mandatory. Then you have, like, journal time. You eat meals together. We also had times where we had activities where we're, like, coming up with cheers for, like, our group. Uh-huh. Um, and then you have, like, like I said, like, dances and pizza nights and things like that. Some other weird things about EFY-
is everywhere you go, you have to be escorted, so- Oh ... the boys have to go up to you and ask, "Can I walk you to our next class?" Right. And you, like, arm-in-arm go. Yeah. And that's kind of like how you decide, like, your crush, and, like, when I went to EFY- Your COW. Yes, the other thing was having a COW, a crush of the week, and I, I don't know, it, like, already sets up, like, all these heteronormative things about- Yeah
like preparing you for dating, and, like- Mm-hmm ... and I also felt bad because, not to be narcissistic, but I wasn't, like, one of the girls at the time that would, like, get picked last. Like, I always found someone that would pick me- Yeah ... and take me, and I feel like being in the church and not being conventionally attractive or being the first pick- Mm
you always feel, like, left out, and I feel like it's already, like, establishing that order for girls of, like, "Well, you're gonna have to get married someday, so let's practice settling. Let's practice like-" Oh. Like, I, I don't know. Like, it was really, it was really weird. Like, like, these, these norms that they put on you of you have to pair up, even for something- Interesting
so simple, like, I feel like it's setting you up for all of these things. Uh, and, and I think that's throughout, like, youth culture in the church in general, but, like- Yeah ... EFY was just kind of like the, where everything's together. Yeah.
Very intense. So interesting. Well, like, just from, from a parenting point of view, what I wanted from EFY for you was just for it to be a fun thing for you to do in the summer, and a fun thing where, where it was like- Mm-hmm
you could go hang out with other people that you had things in common with, um, that, uh, of course, that we had the same beliefs as. Like, in my mind, it was just, like, good, clean fun, right? Like, I wasn't... It was not gonna be something that you were gonna go, you know, be drinking or be, you know, just hanging out without any purpose c- which sometimes kids get in trouble when they're d- when they're just, you know, don't have any particular direction.
I'm so glad you brought that up.
Oh, okay. You have thoughts.
Because I think that it shows another thing that has to do with Mormon youth culture, which is that they think that if you're in the custody of the church, and this, like, I think happens even at a young age, like, when, um- Mm-hmm ... children are alone having interviews with their bishop, like, we think that if you're in the hands of the church, you're safe, right?
Which is, yeah, which is scary. Uh- I've learned in my later years can be very scary.
Yeah. So kids still do- Yeah ... dumb things at EFY. You just have a bunch of- Sure ... Mormons who are used to sneaking things anyways. So, like, I know lots of people that had their first sexual experiences at... God. And I was not, was not that clever, or else...
Like, I, I don't wanna have any illusions. 14, 15-year-old me probably would have gotten into some, some things. But I- Mm ... I didn't think I could get away with it. I thought, you know, we're way too scheduled. And then I heard other people's stories, and I was like, "What do you mean you and this girl were behind the fountain doing that?"
Like- Mm ... so I mean, that's things. And things that I did get into weren't particularly safe either. Like, I remember my first year at SUU, and we got to- Yeah ... like hang out in like the clubhouse area that like, like it felt so cool, like this is where college kids hang out. And I went to go see my older sibling, because I loved hanging out with older guys, and they were in an older group.
Like, they split- Mm ... uh, I sor- I forgot to mention that. They split the groups a little bit based on age. Like, you might have like a two-year age range, so like everyone's kind of around- Mm ... your age. So I'd go see the older boys at my sibling's group. And one of the older boys was choking everyone out, because then you would pass out, and then you'd wake up, and you'd be like, "That was so weird.
That was so cool." And that is something- Wow ... like I wouldn't do now, but 14 and 15-year-old kids will do. That was the worst thing I did, but like there was a lot going on. Like, when you put that many kids together, things happen, and it's not- Yeah ... unique to the Mormon Church. Like, I had lots of friends that went to Catholic camps that things happened.
Like- Right ... there's a lot of anticipation around, you know, seeing other kids your age that you don't know and aren't coming home with you, you know? Like, I think that that's natural. Yeah. I think that happens at every camp. I just... It's so funny that, that a lot of Mormon people thinks, think that like, "Well, if it happens at BYU, like this couldn't possibly be going on."
Yeah, that's wild. So what do you think an alternative is? Because I think that, like you said, any time that you put a bunch of teenagers together, they're gonna, they're gonna do dumb things, and they're gonna get into trouble, and they're gonna- I mean,
I guess like that's- Like- ... where my thing is, is like, A, like I do think that if you're going to put a bunch of kids together, there needs to be more supervision.
Because while I'm not anti kids exploring certain things with each other, like I'm not pro law of chastity or anything like that, I think that you need to have realistic expectations of kids, and longer than the church has been a thing or longer than Christianity has been a thing, teenagers want to do things together.
Like, that's just- Yeah ... natural.
A normal thing.
So I think ex- Yeah ... understanding that that might happen, but then also like when you are embracing that that might happen, I think that you need to set up the right precautions for that, like making sure that there are talks around consent and that there i- are other protections provided and- Um, I think that a situation like that would be a lot safer, honestly.
But
yeah, it's so interesting to think though because like, 'cause like that's the point of, of teenagers getting together is because they don't want supervision, right? Yeah. Like, that was kind of a lot of the point of EFY was it was like some independence. Mm-hmm. An opportunity for you to be a little bit more independent, and that was the safest situation that I thought, you know?
No, I agree, and I don't think that that's on you. I don't think that there's any problem with that. I just think that like, it's more like if you are going to send your kids to any kind of camp, have some realistic expectations- Uh-huh ... and understand that independence and healthy independence means exploring other things.
Sure. Yeah.
And the church, I don't think, has realistic expectations for teenagers. Yeah. So the other thing that I wanted to talk about with EFY, and something that I've seen that like has connected me to other people who grew up religious, is what they call the cry night. So- Wow ... you get all these kids who haven't slept a lot- Mm-hmm
because they're up talking to their friends, and they have a full schedule anyways, and all this stuff is going on. They're meeting new people. You might be feeling insecure about that. You might be feeling excited about that. You might have a crush. You have all of these emotions going, and also you're between the ages of 14 and 18, which is not the best for controlling your emotions.
We're gonna put you together, and we're gonna talk about sad things and how God can save you. And for EFY, that's fast and testimony. And I remember like my second year, they talked about like the program lead for that year, how his son like died of cancer or something. That was like super heightened emotionally and about like their journey with God with that.
And then they split you up into your groups that you've been with all week, and you have testimony night. And you just go up, and like pretty much everyone bears their testimony. And in my life, I've had nights that are Very emotional. That is up there. That is probably in the top 10 is both testimony meetings, because, like, I had women come up and talk about their mother's abortions or talk about sexual assault or men talk about people in their life dying or drug use.
Like, kind of becomes like a trauma dump session- Ooh ... that ends with, "And I can only get through this because of God, and I believe the church is true. Amen." Like-
Wow.
And, and it's so funny because, like, I have heard other people have the same experience of like it is trauma dump that, like, then now we are all trauma bonded to each other, but also- Mm
trauma bonded to the church. Mm. And I, I talk about this a lot. Like, like I talk about how the church talks about the Holy Ghost and what the feeling of the Holy Ghost is. Mm-hmm. And it's just an emotional reaction. Like, I joke with my friends now, like if a song sounds really good and I get chills, I'm like, "Ooh, the Holy Ghost."
Like, you know. Like to me it's kind of become a joke to like deal with what I went through. Mm. But I do think that the church kind of uses situations like this to emotionally manipulate you into, like, staying in the church and being- Mm ... stronger in the church or feeling guilty for your questioning of the church.
Hmm. Interesting. I mean, like one of the things I notice when we, when stuff like this comes up is, is it seems like you ascribe a lot of intention bet- behind these things, like the church is intentionally doing this to, to manipulate you, and I don't, I don't necessarily think that that's true. I think that this is what the humans do, right?
I disagree.
You do?
I think that they are absolutely intent in maintaining members and getting more members. Oh, yeah. I don't think that they sit down and twist their mustache and say, "We're going to make all the children cry, and that's gonna keep them here." Like, that's- Uh-huh ... not what I'm saying. I'm saying that they are very intentional in putting programs together to keep youth in the church when they leave their parents' house.
I think that that is a huge investment for them. I think that they also really try to get more members. I think that that's important to them. I think that, that the growth of the- Yeah ... church is a huge-
Yeah. It's a huge goal, right?
Yes. But what I am saying is that this is a tactic that is used in a lot of cults or in a lot of cult-like way-- programs to bind humans together, because we know that emotional experiences together- Right
bind them together. So I don't think that it is necessarily, like, a one-to-one thing, but I do think that they know that if you have this experience where you are talking about your life or talking about your traumas in your life with other people and find comfort in the church or find comfort in those around you, then you are more likely to stay in the church.
And their goal is to get you to stay in the church, so they facilitate these opportunities for you to have that.
Okay. Yeah. Like, I can-- I see what you're saying better now. I think what, what I'm seeing differently is that I think that the people in the church have good intention behind that, right? Like, because they believe that this is what's good for you is to stay in the church.
Because absolutely, that is definitely a goal of the church, to keep people in the church and to bring others into it. And I think that that is benevolent on their part. I think that that's intended in a good, loving way.
I think it's intended to keep that $8 billion- Mm ... growing. I think that what they need is tithing payers.
I think what they need is power because if all of your members are going to vote a certain way based off- Mm ... of what you say, then you have power politically. I think that, I think that there are people in their, the church that do believe it's bl- benevolent. I don't think that it is fully altruistic- Mm
at all, and I don't... And I think that if it was altruistic- Mm ... it'd be a lot more passive than it is.
You think that money is more motivating than, than people's souls, like caring about people's eternal salvation?
I don't think that that's what they care about. Yeah. Like, I don't. I don't. I think that if, if you cared, if you felt like everyone's soul was damned if they didn't come to this, you would give the information, but you wouldn't be asking 20-year-old men to report back on how many people they talked to about it this month.
Like, I don't think that that would be how you do that. I think that that is what you do when you are trying- Yeah ... to get your membership up.
That's so interesting.
And I, I don't think it's altruistic at all. And I think, too, the second part of that is if it was altruistic of, um, teenagers are going to go through hard things, and they are going to need support to go through those h- hard things, that's what the church would offer is resources and support.
They don't. They offer a lot of guilt and shame, and here is a standard that you need to be reaching, and here's repentance if you feel like you're not reaching that standard. Because I can't imagine watching a bunch of 14-year-olds cry together about the different traumas- Uh-huh ... that they went to, and collecting their $300 and not offering therapy or counseling- No
or anything like that, you know? Like, that is not what the church is offering. Like, it's not like they offered classes on, uh, controlling your emotions or, like, managing hard feelings or building relationships or things like that. They talked about missionary work and chastity and why the Book of Mormon is real and church history and things like that.
Like, I don't think that they're properly supporting the youth, and I feel like that's, that, like, if you're, if you're not properly supporting the youth, then you can't put them in these heightened-
Yeah ... emotional states, you know? I mean, I disagree on a lot of that. Not that I disagree that we should support youth, but I absolutely do not believe that anybody is sending kids to EFY for no other reason than to collect their $300.
I mean, I know a lot of people who are EFY directors, and they absolutely do it for the love of young people, and they absolutely have the best of intentions and love for, for teenagers and are trying to make their lives better. They're definitely not in it for the money.
I think that it made BYU money, and I think that EFY as a program was profitable
I mean, because they have changed the program now, and EFY is now, it's called FSY for the Strength of Youth.
Mm-hmm. And it is run by the church, and it is, and it is free to all young- Mm-hmm ... people in the church.
Right. So I do think that that was a good decision. I don't agree with we need to be spending so much time talking about the gospel, but I guess if you're in the church, that's fine. And I do think that it is appropriate that it is now free, that they're not- Uh-huh
collecting the money from the kids. EFY didn't turn, turn into F- FSY. The church took over and did FSY. The- Yeah ... FSY is run by the church. BYU still did EFY until last year. Last year they had- Uh-huh ... their 50th anniversary, and this year they've rotated to BYU Expeditions. So it's, again, another, like, profitable venture where...
Let's see. Registration open now. There's adventure, so there's camps to go to Moab, to Maple Dell, to Sunrock, all in Utah. There's church history trips, Kirtland, Nauvoo, Palmyra, and then there's, like, two, like, campus- Sure ... courses that are like, one's called Habits for Life and one's called Mission Ready. So it's not like BYU- Yeah
still did EFY, and then they rotated- BYU is still for- ... to something else that they can profit off of ... a profit program. And I mean,
like, I don't think that it's bad to offer something that people want for a profit. Like, I don't think that- No ... and there is a market for it, right? Obviously. There are people that want to send their kids to these camps.
Like, I feel like your premise is, is that it's just kind of like a brainwashing tool or something like that, and I don't think that that's how it's intended. Like, I, I really disagree if that's, if that's what you're saying.
I think that calling it a brainwashing tool or calling it an experience to increase your faith and help you stay in the church, it's just a difference in vocabulary.
Well, I don't think... I mean, I think you could say that about any kind of educational experience, right? Like, any experience that people are selling, like, they're selling to like-minded people who want that experience.
I think it's different if you- Mm-hmm ... are doing a camp, right? Like, just a camp. You're paying for the experience of going to the camp.
That's a one-for-one. That makes sense. But when you put it in a higher structure of creating tithe payers, I think that that is where it becomes manipulative. If you were going to send- Uh-huh ... a kid to a camp about a program, that then for the rest of their lives they can pay 10% of their income- Mm-hmm
towards this program to continue to be the person that they want to be in that program, then that's where it becomes-
I see what you're saying ...
manipulative.
I see what you're saying. Um, let me see if I, if I can restate this, because you're saying that the- Yes ... purpose of EFY is to keep people in the church so that they will pay tithing and keep the church rich and powerful.
Yes. I think that those are not the explicit- Mm-hmm ... purposes, right? Like, I think that the reason that it works so well is that you do have these individuals that are like, "Well, kids are gonna go because I really believe in the church, and I think it would be fun, and I wanna go." And parents are gonna send their kids because, "I want my kid to have a fun time and in a safe space that I can trust."
Yeah. Great. Seems like a worthwhile program. I think that you have the people who create the program that are thinking, "Oh, like, this might be somewhat profitable for another program in our institution that would be good, and it offers kids a place to go during the summer, and I'm helping kids and helping the youth, and I can teach them good and useful things," right?
"And this is a church I care about, and I want- Mm ... the youth in this church to be good." Right? Like, I don't think that anyone is explicitly, like, again, twisting their mu- mustache, being like, "This is what- Right ... the purpose is, is to get you to pay tithing for the rest of your life." What I am saying is that that is- A implicit purpose because of the way that the church operates.
If the church did not collect tithe money or if tithing was optional for you to achieve everything within the church, like if they weren't... Like tithing in the Mormon Church uh, unofficially acts as paying to get into the temple. If, if that wasn't the case, then that implicity is taken away, and then it is more altruistic, right?
Yeah. But that's not how it functions because that's not how the church functions. Yeah.
Interesting. I mean, like tithing is a, is an interesting one for me. I, I'm not on board with tithing being a requirement to go to the temple. That is, is definitely a, a thing that is challenging for me because it brings that weird motivation into it, right?
It's, it's... Now we're talking about- Mm-hmm ... money and people's livelihood, and money is in fact power in the world. It is. So, so to reduce the church to it, it's only about money though, like I, I disagree with that.
The church is worth more than the-
No, I get that ...
corporation of Disney. Like, they do not have to tithe their, their...
Like they can make more off of their investments every year than they make in tithing every year from all of their members. Like, that is just a fact. They do not have to tithe their members. They don't. Yeah. But they do because it's controlling and because it keeps them in power. And they ask like 20 and 21-year-old kids to go into impoverished communities and tell the people in these impoverished communities that their lives would be better if they follow this church and go to the temple, and to do that, you must pay 10% of your income even though you have no wiggle room.
They tell stories in general conference about women who are single mothers and give their last, you know, $20 to the church, and that is worth so much to the church. And, and in my opinion- Uh-huh ... they shouldn't have to give their last $20. Like, the church is worth $8 billion or more at this point.
Yeah. The church is worth an awful lot of money, and like that's a real thing.
That's a real frustrating and confusing thing. And I think that this is good, right? Because this is definitely one of those things that we really disagree on, right? Yeah. And so it's good to have this conversation on here. But for most of the church's existence, it has not been worth ridiculous amounts of money.
And I think that this is, this is the thing for me, is it's like, okay, I tend to look at the church and assume the best motivations, right? Mm-hmm. And, and I think at this point in your life- And I'm not saying that this is wrong or anything like that, but you tend to assume the worst motivations.
I disagree with that premise.
Okay.
Like, I think that I'm in a place where I'm seeing things, like, more evenly. Like- Yeah ... definitely think when I left, like, I was very angry. Mm-hmm. But I think now, like, I can say, yeah, like, that part was good. That's, that's a great thing that the Mormon Church does. Like, I can absolutely admit that about a lot of things.
But I can also look at things like, especially tithing or the way that they manipulate youth, and say, "That's bad. That is- Mm ... corrupt." That is in any system, right? The Mormon Church is not unique in that system. They're just unique in how rich they are. Mm. That that is bad. Like, I can go take my communication courses and say, "Yep, this is how you manipulate a group of people into action."
Like, 100%. True. This is how you manipulate people from a young age for a lifetime.
Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I don't... Sorry, like, I don't wanna fight about it, right? Yeah. And, and, like, that's part of the point of doing this whole thing- Mm-hmm ... right, is just to have these conversations and just be like, "Okay, well, we're allowed to see things differently, and we're still allowed to respect each other's point of view."
Right? Yeah. I mean, are we agreeing on that? Like... Okay. I need a time out because you seem, like, pissed off at me.
No, I'm pissed off at the church. Like, I'm mad, like... I don't know. Maybe this is a part that we cut out. Like, this is just, like, a part where, like, I disagree so much. Like, and I love you. Uh-huh. I, I do, and I'm not mad at you.
I am just, like, still angry about the church in that spot, and I don't want it to be pushed off as not a valid response because I'm mad at the church or because I have emotions around it. Like, that- Right ... doesn't mean that the response isn't valid, like, or that, like, the opinion isn't valid, or, like, that, that, like, stating, like- The church is invested in keeping membership high and keeping members paying tithing.
Like, that's just a fact, you know?
Yeah. Well, and I... Like, I don't disagree with that. Yeah. I don't disagree that there are people with malicious intent in every organization, including the church. Yeah. Right?
And I guess I also believe that a lot of people that have done evil things have felt like they're doing the right thing.
Well, I think, I think that that's very true. I think that sometimes we do harm thinking that we're doing good, and that's heartbreaking and frustrating, and I've been in that situation, right? Where I've thought that what something that I was doing was the right thing and was, was helping people or, or what God wanted me to do.
Mm-hmm. And it was actually harming people, and that is heartbreaking. Like, that is, that is probably one of the most painful experiences that you can have, at least in my experience. Okay. Doing things that I thought were, were motivated by righteousness or goodness- Mm ... and having them actually be harmful to people.
And I think that where we can agree, too, is that if you as a mother can do that, like make that mistake when you are in charge of just your family- Right ... that someone who is in charge of a much larger group of people can also do that. Yes. And that the shockwaves of that might be larger.
Yeah, and that's disturbing.
It is. And I feel- And I think that that's, that's why I think it's so important to have conversations, right? Mm-hmm. Because we have to be able to look at things clearly. I mean, 'cause we all think we s- we're seeing things clearly. Like, we all think we're right all the time. That's just how it is. But to be able to look at somebody else's point of view and say, "Oh, okay, let me see if I can figure out, you know, what have been your experiences that have, have led you to believe this," right?
Yeah. 'Cause, I mean, there, there really is no part of me that thinks that the Quorum of the Twelve is just like, "We don't actually care about people's soul, we just want their money," right? I, I don't believe that. I think that there may be people in high places in the church, but I don't think that that's this.
But I don't think that that's how people operate when they're doing something wrong. I think that people in power will excuse what they're doing, will feel like it's the right thing, will say, "Well, I have this pressure on myself to keep- Mm-hmm ... this fund at this level, so that means we need this membership, and we need to do another talk on tithing in general conference, 'cause we have to keep the members pa- Like, I think that that is more how it goes than- Okay
how do we get more money? Yeah. But it doesn't change what happens. Right. I guess that's maybe where I'm getting heated, is I don't wanna be misunderstood as, like, conceding that people are doing this not telling themselves a narrative that they're doing the right thing. But- Yeah ... the narrative you tell yourself and the results of your actions don't always match, right?
Right. Right. And to go back to clear at the beginning of, of what we were talking about, like by their fruits, right? Mm-hmm. We have to look at things by the effect that they have in the world. Mm-hmm. And I think that when we lose touch with that, when we start just judging things as, as righteous- Mm-hmm
rather than, like, looking at... Like, righteousness- Mm-hmm ... is not always the same thing as goodness. Mm-hmm. We need to define things that are good- by the fruits that they produce in the world, and not just by some standard of, like, this is what we believe God's rules are.
Yeah. I guess, like, kind of taking it back to what I was initially saying is- Mm-hmm
I can see how in a world a leader puts this program together and says, "We do fast and testimony meeting. We're gonna do this, and then we'll have a fast and testimony meeting for everyone." I think that after the third, fourth, fifth session of watching such an emotional reaction- Mm ... I think that's when you look at that and say, "That's the fruit that it's creating.
How can we address this?" Mm. And maybe they did have conversations around that, but I'm just saying that, like, it does seem to be something that occurs in every church or in a lot of churches where they are invested in keeping you emotionally attached to the church, and I don't think that it receives enough criticism.
Yeah. I think that that's a really good point. I mean, I think that it's something... Because, because absolutely the goal of the church, the goal of programs like EFY is to keep youth in the church. Mm-hmm. I don't think that there's any argument there. Mm-hmm. And so to the degree that it's, it's creating heightened emotional experiences that bond, you know, youth to, to the church, I think that, that that would be considered a good thing in light of that goal.
Mm-hmm. Right? And, I mean, I've been involved in planning girls camps. I've been involved in planning youth experiences and that kind of thing, and we do. We have a testimony meeting so that young people can talk about their feelings and talk about their emotions and that kind of thing. But it's not, it's not ever a malicious thing.
It's not ever a thing... But I can see where you're saying, like, if it gets to the point where, where serious trauma has occurred and is being shared in a situation like that, that definitely is something that should be looked at. And to your point, like, we need to talk about that and say, "Okay, is this actually something that is doing good for these youth?"
Mm-hmm. "Or is it something that is traumatizing them further?"
Yeah. I mean, I kinda meant this episode to just be kind of fun to talk about- ... youth culture because it's kinda weird in the church, and we got- Yeah ... into tithing, which is, I think, one of our, like, more-
Tithing is a tough one. It really is. Yeah.
Tithing makes sense to me on a level of, like, not being attached to your money, of trusting God more than you trust money, of unselfishness, right? Of... There are several levels that tithing makes sense to me on. The level where the church has $8 billion and, um, has power because of all of this money, that, that I struggle with, right?
Like, I, um, I think that that really is a conversation that needs to happen in the church on a bigger level because, 'cause I don't think... I mean, there's so many scriptures that talk about wealth and the evils- Mm-hmm ... of wealth, right? Mm-hmm. And a lot of the, the reasons that we've given for, like, being prepared for emergencies, being prepared for a rainy day, all of those kinds of things- Mm-hmm
they don't completely hold up to $8 billion.
No, it's like they're preparing to buy a country.
Yeah. So, so that is something that, that I really feel like inside the church we need to have some, some hard conversations about. As far as, like, where- Yeah ... how we got to that point, like, it makes sense to me how we got to that point because early in the church they were in a lot of debt, and they're like, "Okay- Mm-hmm
it's not good to be in debt, and so we need to- Mm-hmm ... do something to get out of that," right? And so they really started- Mm-hmm ... emphasizing tithing. But yeah, at the place that we're at now, I mean, like it- there's some really uncomfortable conversations to be had. Like, the church could solve world hunger.
Why, why haven't we done that? Like, what kind of a rainy day are we holding onto that money for? And so, so I do think that those are important conversations.
And I also just think on a personal level, the things that tithing teaches you as a practicing member could also be exercised in other ways. Like, you exercise that through service to the church and through giving your time and your energy and I also think that it could be exercised on a much smaller tithe.
Yeah. Like, you know, like all of these things when I was a member were important, but from the outside looking in, I'm just like, "That's ridiculous." Yeah. Like, I don't even have the same feelings about, like, fast offering. Yeah.
But- Yeah. I mean, I hope you don't feel like I'm saying that that point of view is invalid.
No, that's not what I-
Okay, good ... feel. I think that this is a good episode because- I think that part of what we're trying to do here is show that it's not scary to disagree.
I mean, that's fair. Yeah. This was not meant to be the topic of our conversation at all, so that's- A disagreement live ... kind of like a disagreement live.
We call that. On camera. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean- Yeah ... I guess that's really how we talk. I guess we can keep in even the time out thing, 'cause I think that's really fair. Like, I use that even in my personal-
Right, right ...
conversations where I'm like, "Can we just check in that we- Yeah ... still like each other?"
Because I really love that about you, that you think about things different than me, and that you stretch my mind and help me to see it in a different way. That has been really... Yeah. I mean, what, I've learned so much from you, and from your different perspective on things. And, you know, and you've changed- Mm-hmm
my mind a- about a lot of things. Not about everything, right? There's still... Like, obviously we still disagree about this in some ways.
No. But- No. Yeah. I think there's other conversations that are a better example of me respecting what you believe. Like, this one is a hard one for me to, like, sit back and detach from- Yeah
and be like, "Okay, it's okay if she believes that." I think more, like, when I get more heated in our conversations are, like, when I feel like- Oh ... like, misrepresented in where my point comes from. Like, I, you know. But, like, I, I think that, like, the thing that we believe about, like, the intentions of the church can both be true, and I think that we have- Yeah
more that we agree on on that. Yeah.
Well, I'm glad that you clarified that, right?
Like, I'm not going conspiracy theory on this, you know? Like, I, I just think that this is the nature of- Yes ... power, and when you have power, when it's based on you believe this and when you don't believe this- Mm ... then I'm gonna lose my power over you, that's when I do think that the nature is to do things that are- Mm, yeah
manipulative even if you think they're the right thing. Very manipulative.
I don't think that the church is a cult, but I think that sometimes we can behave like a cult.
And that's what cults do, is behave like- cults That's kind of the whole point.
I think that that's on individual members though, right?
Because- if I put my faith in things blindly and don't- think for myself, if I outsource my, thinking to the church, that's when it becomes a cult. And I think that- Yeah ... sometimes we do behave like that.
Well, and to be fair, to be completely fair, is most groups of human have some cult-like behaviors.
Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I go to SoulCycle every week. It's cultish. Like, you know, like- Sure ... that's just what it is. I don't know.
But it's import- it's, I think it's important to call it out and say, "Is this right? What kind of fruit is this bearing?"
Correct. And I think it's also important on an individual level to realize, like, what- is this creating in me, right? Like- Yes ... like, if SoulCycle got so intense in my life that I wanted to move to another country for two, years, like, I should think about that. But, like, you know, I, I am aware of, like, because I go to SoulCycle, I'm a lot more likely to buy their merchandise or things like that.
Like, the, the ways that I am being emotionally manipulated.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think ultimately that is on us as individuals, and also maybe call it out for more, more vu- vulnerable populations. Yeah. All right. Such an interesting conversation, Kimberly.
I don't know how we're gonna end it.
I think we just end it there, that it's an interesting conversation, and I love you.
I love you, too.
We'll talk again soon. Bye. Bye.