Hi, I'm Kari. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee & Coco, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith.
We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide.
And this is part two of us actually discussing our steps to reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith.
So in our prior episode, we talked about the first five steps, which are creating your own emotional safety, establishing a shared want for a relationship, creating opportunities to connect, listening to each other, and taking ownership of mistakes. So this episode, we're gonna be discussing steps six through 10.
Mm-hmm. So we recommend that you listen to the other episode first.
And again, to be clear, they're not really like linear steps. They're just-
No ...
and it's not like if you just do these 10 things, then you will have a perfect relationship. Because- You
have to keep doing them ... because it's ongoing work. We just kind of keep going.
Yeah. So number six that we put down here was to give each other credit.
Mm-hmm. So we talked about before, and I just wanna reiterate here, number five is taking ownership for your mistakes, and that allows for number six to happen. Because when you are able to say, "Yes, this thing, I understand, hurt you, and I love you enough to see that and apologize for that-" Mm-hmm
it leaves room for you to then see the good in the other person. Like it was- Yeah ... much easier for me when you didn't meet me with, "I'm sorry I'm such a terrible mother," when you met me with, "You're right, that thing hurt you," for me to then say, "And I love you, and you created a lot of magic for me as a child, and you gave me a lot of love, and there was a lot of good."
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what if, what do you do if the other person isn't taking responsibility for their mistakes?
I think that it's important to view this list of, like, what can I do, right? Yeah. So for step five, I can take ownership of my mistakes, and then step six, I can give credit. Mm-hmm. So I do know that the ownerships allows me to take credit more easily, but I think that in certain situations when they're not taking full ownership, it's still important to give that credit.
Like, I think- Yeah ... that it's still important to say the good things that happened and to say, "Look, there are things that were hurtful, but there were a lot of things that I love." Mm-hmm. And I also think when we're talking about the safety element of, uh, taking ownership for what you did wrong, it does help create that safety.
If you understand that I view you as someone who is loving, who is trying, who did create a lot of good for me, then it's easier for you to own up to me that- You understand that that particular thing was hurtful. Like, for example, if I'm willing to say, "Yes, Mom, like, you decorated for us every birthday, and you made sure that the house was clean, and you, um, showed up to my cheer tryout and gave me a candy," and everybody was like, "Where was that candy from?"
And I was like, "Ugh, it's my mom. You can't get it. Like, it's just my mom that does that." Like, all of these things that you did do that were, like, very magical and very loving and important to me, then I think that you can understand that I don't view you as just an evil person that was, like, extremely hurtful in my life or, or- Mm-hmm
a antagonistic character. And I think then it's easier for you to say, "Yeah, that time I yelled at you was really hurtful," or, "This rule I put on you was not fair."
Yeah. Yeah. I think... Well, it's interesting, because I, like, the way you're describing it as a cycle, where it makes- Mm-hmm ... it easier, I think that that's really true, right?
Like, the more that we get into this where we, where we see each other as good people that sometimes just make mistakes or sometimes do things unintentionally that, that hurt each other, then the easier that cycle becomes. But- Mm-hmm ... but somebody has to go first, right? And ideally, like, that should be the parent, right?
Be the grown-up. But it really can be either person that, that starts that and gives, and gives the other person credit.
Mm-hmm.
It can be either person th- to say, "Look, you were, you were a great mom in, in a lot of ways," or, "You were an amazing daughter in a lot of ways." Mm-hmm. And it gets easier as you go. But somebody has to start that.
Mm-hmm. Somebody has to start that cycle.
Yeah. And in my experience, no matter who starts the cycle, it's always gonna feel like you're the one that started the cycle because it just builds, you know? Yeah, that's probably true. You might start it, start it in a small way and the other person might start in a small way and you feel like you started it.
Or like, you know, when you're reacting- Yeah ... to something you can feel like you're starting it. Yes. But when we talk about these cycles that build, the, the best case scenario is for you to both be starting it and both be- Right ... and that's why I say, like, a lot of this list is, like, what can I do and what, how can I take ownership- Yeah
in this relationship?
Mm-hmm.
You know? It's not about- I agree ... waiting for the oth- like, you know, when we're talking about step two, establish a want for a relationship, it's not waiting for the other person to say, "I want a relationship with you." It's your responsibility to say, "I would like a relationship.
I'm here when you wanna talk."
Right. And I think that the reason it s- it, it feels like you're the person starting it is because it's still hard, right? Yeah. It, it's not like it's easy. Like, you're doing a hard thing and I'm doing a hard thing, and as we do those hard things together back and forth, that they get easier.
But also, um, I like that you, you were talking about these are things that you can do be- because a lot of times with relationships I think people think, "Well, this relationship would be better if that person changed." And these are the things- Mm-hmm ... that you can do- Mm-hmm ... without them needing to do anything really yet to get it started.
Yeah.
And sometimes it takes working on these things a long time-
Mm-hmm ...
before, and working on yourself a long time before it starts to be reciprocated, I think.
Yeah. And I do wanna say in this list, right, like some of the things- Mm-hmm ... sound obvious or sound silly, and I do think that it's important to note that not every step that we came up with came on the list.
And the reason that we thought this one specifically was important is when you're doing these hard things with another person, like when you're doing this relationship rebuilding or management, it can feel like an attack on your character. It can feel like this person- Mm-hmm ... sees me as the bad guy in their life.
And that is why this is so important is, you know, even if you feel like that person thinks you're the bad guy, to extend that grace and extend the, um, understanding that I don't think you're a bad person. I can see where your heart is and what your intention is.
Yeah. I love that. And so, um, I mean, number seven kind of goes along with that w- 'cause we said see and love each other for who they are.
Mm-hmm.
Because we all are good and bad, right? Mm-hmm. We, like, none of us is completely the hero or completely the villain. We all are a complicated mix of good and evil and right and wrong and so- Nice and mean and all of that
And I think for me this step's important because it's where acceptance comes in.
I think that if you're rebuilding a relationship, especially one that's been damaged by one person leaving the faith- Mm-hmm ... um, specifically in the LDS church where that can feel like a really big rejection- Mm-hmm ... um, it's seeing them and accepting them for who they are. Like, I felt like I could have a real relationship with you and dad or with the rest of my family when I felt seen and celebrated for all of the good that I am and not just loved for the potential of me returning to the church.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, one of the mistakes I see moms making a lot is that they are co- constantly trying to love them back into the faith. Mm-hmm. Right? That, that they feel like it's their job to just love them until they return to the faith. And-
Mm-hmm ...
and there's always that kind of underlying feeling in, in the relationship as long as you're doing that, right?
Mm-hmm. As long as, as long as you're just trying to fix them a little bit or just trying to help them a little bit or, or something like that, then the other person feels that from, from you, right? They feel that kind of pressure.
Yeah. Your kid can absolutely feel when you are ministering to them versus having a real relationship with them.
Yeah. W- Right, and that, that is a hard thing too to be, to just kind of put that down, like expecting them to be the k- whatever you expected them to be when they grew up. So, like acceptance can be a really hard thing sometimes- Mm-hmm ... because it can be like setting down th- things that you've believed all your life, things that you've, um, that you've always thought to be true.
But going back to like recognizing that, that you can be wrong, like you are wrong some, about some things, and accepting that about, um, you know, some of your ideas of who your child should be, and accepting and looking for all of the good that they are rather than all of the good that you thought that they should be.
Mm-hmm.
And that it's not your job to make them into something, right? They are who they are, and they are beautiful and amazing and wonderful the way that they are. And the- Mm ... experience that they're having in life is difficult and, and beautiful and hard and, and all of the things. It's a full human life, and it's just as valid.
In fact, it's more valid than whatever you thought it should be.
Yeah. Well, I feel like in the LDS Church especially, there's a lot of pressure on parents to keep their kids in the church and to teach their kids. And I think that it's really hard once you have adult kids that have that agency and can pick for themselves to then put that down, to say, "Look, I did what I could to teach them."
Mm-hmm. "I gave them all of the information, and at the end of the day they chose differently," and then accepting and loving that they chose differently.
Yeah. Yeah, and accepting that that's... Like, I, I don't know. Like, for me, it's like I'm not your creator-
Mm-hmm ...
I'm just your mother. You get to create your own life- Mm-hmm
and you get to, to decide what that's gonna look like, and it's not my job to make it something.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
I love that. All right. Number eight is my favorite thing, which is that everyone deserves the space and grace to grow. So for me, this looked like allowing there to be several conversations before you changed or recognized that you were wrong in a certain way or, like- Mm-hmm
came to an understanding with me. Like, the first time that I talk to you about something isn't gonna be the first time that that fully gets to you, and that's okay. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, especially when we're talking about things that you have changed your mind on over the years, like LGBTQ issues, right?
The first time that we discuss it- Mm-hmm ... isn't gonna be the first time that you have a complete change of heart on that issue. Mm-hmm. However, you might start thinking, "Okay," like step one is, I don't think that being gay is necessarily a sin, and then step two might be thinking that gender isn't divine or, like, you know, these little, these little changes that are growth over time to us coming to an understanding
Yeah.
I think you have to be careful of not having, uh... I mean, I think that that can go back to, like, I'm creating or I'm teaching or, or something like that. Yeah.
But,
but just understanding, I, I mean, to me it's just like, okay, they're a good person, they're gonna, they're gonna learn the things that they need to learn at some point, right?
Yeah.
And people can change their mind, and people can change and grow and, and sometimes, like, not even expecting them to be completely different yet, right? Because-
Mm-hmm ...
I mean, we both have people in our family who have some ideas that we, we both don't agree with.
Yeah.
And defend those ideas. But also, we continue to have a relationship with them just because we think they're good people, they're growing and learning in, in the ways that they need to grow and learn, and maybe someday they'll change their mind, and maybe they won't.
But...
Yeah. I guess with what I was saying, there are some things that I'm, like, going back to, like, h- sharing an objective truth or having mental flexibility, like, there are things that I'm like, "Well, I think that this is what most good people think, and I do think that, like, when you open your heart to it, this is how you'll feel."
But to your point too, like, it is fair and there is space for they might never change their mind on this, and we might have- Mm-hmm ... to disagree on this for a long time.
Yeah.
But allowing that space, you know? I think that I definitely have a, as I've gotten older, have realized how much we just continue to grow as people and change as people.
Yeah. And that sounds really silly, 'cause I'm not even 30 yet. But I think that, like, when I was younger, I really saw adults as adults and fully formed, you know, people. But then I'll see, like, my 65-year-old gram change his mind on something at, at 65, and-
Yeah ...
and, and it's because we never stop growing, you know?
We never stop changing.
Yeah. And so just allowing, again, kind of that growth mindset of just understanding, you know, w- we haven't arrived yet. None of us have arrived yet. Mm-hmm. And probably never will arrive. We'll probably continue to change our minds and to change our hearts and, and continue to do that.
I guess with that, when people are changing, like, accepting that we're constantly changing and accepting the new that people come to us with. Mm-hmm. You know, it doesn't serve any of us to say, "Well, this is how you used to act about it," or, "This is how you used to feel about it," and hold you to your old beliefs or your old understandings for- Yeah
forever. Um, it's important to say, "Okay, I see that you've come to a different understanding and this is how you feel now."
Yeah. That's hard to do sometimes.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, it's very fun to be like, "Well, I thought you thought that shoulders were inappropriate, and now-
Right ...
now they're fine."
You know? Now they're
fine.
I know. It's the I told you so, right? Like-
Yeah ...
uh, like, like you said, it just doesn't do any good to say I told you so. It just doesn't... It just, it just makes it harder for people to change, right?
It does. It does. And I do feel like, you know, in certain belief systems, there is this idea of like, "I have to stand firm in my belief, and I have to like, hold steadfast to this, and I've felt this way the whole time."
And-
Mm ...
I don't think that that's the virtue that some people think it is. Like- Yeah ... I think that it's good to say, "Oh, I was presented with new information," or, "I looked into this more and I do feel differently about it."
Yeah. There are things that are important, I think, to stand firm on, but I think you have to really be intentional about what those things are- Yeah
and not necessarily everything that, that you've been taught. I th- I think that whatever you're s- standing firm on, I think that you have to question it deeply. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, you have to really look and say, "Okay, why? What is this creating? What are the results of this? Is this a hill that I'm willing to die on," for lack of a better metaphor, but, "Is this really- Yeah
as important as, as I think it is?" And really examine those things.
Yeah. No, I, I think of the example of like LDS people being asked if a different God to you came and showed you creation and showed you that like, that all of Earth and our purpose here and our souls are different than what the LDS faith tells you, would you still believe in the LDS church?
And they say yes, and I'm like, that's not a virtue. We're saying that if- Right ... somebody came and proved you wrong, you wouldn't... Like, that's not a belief now. That's just like a throwing your head in the sand and-
Yeah ... and,
and forcing this truth to be true to you.
Yeah. I was watching a reel this week about, uh, this guy that was talking about how, um, nobody's willing to die for this anymore.
Like, where are the people that are willing to die for this religion? And-
Mm-hmm ...
and, like, that's not the flex that you think it is, right? Yeah. It's, if you're wrong, there has to be some mechanism for recognizing and allowing yourself to be wrong and learning what's right and good, rather than just being willing to die for, for an idea or an identity.
Yeah. The last thing I wanna say with number eight is that you can't hold a grudge. Like, we want people to be flexible with their understanding. We want people to change their mind to the best reason and understanding when new information is presented. We want to be able to change beliefs when we feel like we can't defend a certain belief anymore.
So we can't really hold grudges when they've done things from a different understanding. Like, I think it's important... Like I said, we put steps first about taking ownership, and I think that it's important that both parties do that. Mm-hmm. But I think that once the apology's been made, once ownership's been taken, or once the belief has changed, I think that you can't keep, you know, beating a dead horse, for lack of a better phrase.
Mm-hmm. Um, number nine is create new traditions and shared experiences, which I feel like we're still kind of working on. I think this one's more specific to relationships across the faith divide. When you grow up with certain really, like, religious-based practices and traditions- Mm-hmm ... and a lot of your connection to your family is through these practices, um-
Yeah
it's hard to lose those, and it's hard to, like, continue the relationship when you're not seeing each other for church or seeing each other for sealings or for, um, baptisms and things like that. Or we don't
get the whole bap- family together for, for so-and-so's baptism or, or baby blessing- Yeah ... or whatever.
Which there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying that, like, we shouldn't still invite people to our temple weddings or baptisms or things like that.
Yeah.
But what I am saying is it's good to find things that might be good traditions to have that are not reliant on us all sharing the faith.
Yes. I think that that's really important because, yeah, I mean, there are things that you lose when you lose, when you leave the church, right?
Mm-hmm. Or when your child leaves the church. There are, are things that just are different, that hit differently. Mm-hmm. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that was the only way that you could connect
Right ...
it just means that you have to be more intentional about creating the space to connect.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's important to find ways to celebrate what you have now, which kind of goes in hand with accepting people for who they are now. Yeah. Um, you know, celebrating the relationship that you have, not in absence of a different relationship, right? Like, it doesn't serve us if like every Sunday you still want us to come sit in the pew with you.
Like, that's just not gonna happen. But there are, there are lots of fun things that we can do now that, that are reflective of like who we all are now.
Yeah, and I think that that's been a thing that I've kind of been thinking about, is that any time that there's something that I miss, that I'm like, "Oh, I wish we had that," like redirecting that thought to, "Okay, like, what is it about that that I wish that I had, and how can I create that in our family?"
Mm-hmm.
Right? And I'm still working on that. And like the hardest th- part about it for me is, is the buy-in, right? Mm-hmm. Because it's just like, um, trying to convince everybody else to come in and do what I think they should
do. Mm-hmm. But- Yeah ...
especially when we're all spread out and, and that kind of stuff.
But you guys have been really great about, you know, prioritizing- Yeah ... some things and prioritizing family and stuff. Yeah. I
appreciate that. So- Well, I also think of things like, you know, if I had stayed Mormon, I'd probably be married by now or probably have a kid by now, and those would've been like sections that like you guys would have celebrated me.
Mm-hmm. But it meant a lot like when I graduated college and you guys came to Massachusetts and, like saw me and, like it was a big deal- Yeah ... and like it was given the same credibility, and it was like representative of who I am.
Yeah.
And not holding out for me to be someone else.
Yeah, and I think sometimes we have to create those milestones.
Not that- Mm-hmm ... 'cause college graduation was obviously a, a big deal.
Yeah.
But, um, like finding, finding those things to celebrate is important.
Mm-hmm.
Intentionally. A lot of intentionality. So number 10, this one has been really important for me, is just to trust God and to... And I guess if you don't believe in God, then to just kind of trust the process of life, right?
You know, that there's a long game here, and the arc is bent towards the good.
Mm-hmm.
For me, I just, I just don't believe that loving God is ever going to, like, stop our progress. So if we continue to exist after this life, I feel like we will continue to improve and continue to grow until we all reach whatever state of perfection we're supposed to, to reach.
And so, I don't know. For me, that's a lot of the logic behind, um, you know, allowing people to, to learn and grow, and allowing myself to learn and grow and, and all of that kind of stuff, so.
I mean, I don't believe in God, but I do trust in people and I do trust in the people around me. And I think that a lot of this process has been trusting you and trusting myself that you're going to continue to try and do what it takes to make this relationship work, and I am too.
And also trusting that you are a good person and want to do good things.
I mean, w- when I say trust in God, I, I think that for me, a lot of what that means is trust in whatever is, is good. Because I do think that- Mm-hmm ... there, like, there is a discernible good and evil. And to me, God has to be the ultimate of, of whatever is good.
So I mean, I think that there are probably things that we've missed here or things that other people might add or whatever. But these were a lot of the things that we thought of that, that we've learned through the process of rebuilding our relationship and, um, taking care of each other.
There's plenty of things that we could probably think of to add or more details to add.
Um, but when we think about what we continually come back to, this- Mm ... these are a lot of the, the beliefs and traits and, and practices that have helped us reconstruct our relationship.
Yeah, and I think the, the overarching themes are, are just growing ourselves and allowing each other to grow.
Mm-hmm.
And then, and then trusting in each other.
I think-
Mm-hmm ...
trusting in ourselves to be good people, trusting in the other person to be good people, and again, trusting in what's good and what's-
Yeah ...
and that there is a good force. So-
Mm-hmm ...
ongoing process, and maybe we'll do another one in a year and that's like- Maybe we'll update it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
We'll see what happens. But yeah, as always, thank you for going through this process with me, both in our relationship and then in this podcast too. It's been fun to have these conversations. So...
Yeah. And I'm proud of our relationship that we have now.
I am too. I'm happy that we, that we connect so well, and not perfectly, right?
Like I-
No.
But...
We continue to try.
We continue to try, and I think that that's s- the biggest thing, so...
I love you.
I love you too. We'll talk to
you soon. Talk to
you soon. Bye bye.
I think that that can go back to, like, I'm creating or I'm teaching or, or something like that. Yeah. But, but I think that you just fully rolled your eyes at me. Did you know you did that? Sorry. Force of habit.
Oh,
my bad. We need to do an outtakes for this one. That's fine. We can keep that one in. Okay, go on. Okay.
Sorry, Mom. It's okay. I love you.