Hi, I'm Kari And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Cocoa, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. So, and we're twinsies today. We are, with our porn shoulders. That's actually what I was gonna bear my testimony on today, because when the new garments came out, I was just, like, so...
I was so annoyed, honestly, by it- Yeah ... because, well, for one thing I'm old now, and I don't have the cutest arms anymore. But, um, and, and I've worn, you know, cap sleeves all of my life, and whatever- Mm-hmm ... and I was just like, "Whatever, I'm old, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get the new ones." But, but then I got just a couple of pair just to try them, and I love them so much.
Like, it's ridiculous- Yeah ... how much I love these. And, and because I only bought a couple of pairs, and I don't know how I lucked out and found those couple of pairs, but I've been to every distribution center that I can get to to try to find new ones, and they are gone everywhere. Oh, same. Like, you can buy an extra small or you could, I think a double extra small or a four X large are the, the sizes that they have.
So- So you have to, like, portion out when you wanna wear certain things to wear those garments. I totally do. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm kind of recycling the tops. Like, I'm, like, I can wear the top two days without washing it. I mean, when you think about it like an undershirt, like- Right, right ... I have tank tops I let go a couple of days before washing, for sure.
Yeah, so I'm not too worried about it, but- Yeah. We should have said, because this is a podcast and not just a video, but we are both wearing tank tops today. Tank tops. Yeah. Yeah. We both have our porn shoulders out. It's fun. I was, you know, it's been hot here, so- Mm-hmm ... I'm sure it's been hot, too. Nevada gets so hot.
Yeah, even northern Nevada. Well- Mm-hmm ... northern Nevada is weird that way because, because it gets, because we're so high in elevation, that we get super hot during the day, and then it, and it gets kind of cold at night, right? And so we have- Yeah ... a huge temperature fluctuation, which is always weird. But- Yeah.
But lovely. It's lovely out there. It is kind of lovely sometimes. Here it's humid right now, and I don't love it. Ooh, I hate humid. Ugh. I have to say, I do, and I, I know I gush about New York all the time- Uh-huh ... it's been such a blessing to, like, live here and be able to be here. I do love New York in the summer.
I'm really enjoying myself every day. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. A little too much, because today I'm sick, and I don't know if it's allergies or, like, the air conditioning or, like, there's been a couple of bugs going around. Um- Oh, no ... but also it could be that, like, and Mom, I'm so sorry, like, I am, I've been drinking to the point where I'm like, "Well, this isn't, this just isn't good for me," like, I, I keep having events, and then I'm with my friends and I'll be like, "Oh, I'll get one drink," and, like, I'm usually a very- very moderate drinker, you know?
Mm-hmm. Like, I think I went through the point where I left the church, and I was, like, college age, and I, you know, over-consumed But, like, I'm a very, like... I have a very low tolerance, and I- Mm-hmm ... also like... So I don't need a lot. And, um- Mm-hmm ... I'm also a very slow drinker, like notoriously. Like, all of my friends can get, like, two rounds in the time that I'm getting one.
Mm-hmm. But I have been drinking more than I normally do, especially, like, last month with, like, going to bars constantly to watch the, um- Oh ... Knicks. Like, I'm like, "Wow, I'm having, like..." I, like, usually average, like, maybe two to three drinks a month, and I've been, like, averaging- Oh ... like, probably that much in a week.
So anyways, self-awareness is good. It's been so fun, but I, I really need to take a break. But I can't, I can't say no to an event, so now I've just been getting Diet Coke at the bar. Oh. Uh, yeah. Well. Yeah. But what I was gonna say about what you were saying about the garments is, like, I feel like, you know, changes like that are really difficult because, like, on the one hand, you're like, "Yay, I can do this now."
But also on the other hand, you're like, "Well, I sat in a, in a store and argued with my daughter about cap sleeves." 100%, yeah. And, like ... And I obviously didn't need to. Did it ever actually matter? Yeah. Um, yeah, it's a thing, and it's been interesting to watch kind of the church wrestle with it because- Mm-hmm
there's been lots of different opinions. Like, a certain lady that I know, she's just like, "Oh, they, the church just gave in because people, um, because people just couldn't hack the rules, and so the church had to soften the rules for them," and stuff like that. And so there's, like, that attitude of it, right?
But I, I love... I just think options are always good, right? Yeah. Like, for people who, who choose to and want to wear the garments for whatever- Mm-hmm ... reason they choose to, I think that it's, it's good to have the option. Yeah. And like I said- And I- ... I'm en- I'm enjoying it. I'm glad. I have a hard time on my end with the church getting lax on modesty in general.
Like, you know, like- Mm ... I really struggled having to wear a tankini in my, in high school. Yeah. And, like, or I'll see, like, girls on Instagram, like, wearing certain things to work out that I'm like, well, if I had worn that in high school and you knew me, you would've shamed me. But I am, like, glad- Mm ... that people have more agency and don't have to feel guilty about it.
Yeah. It's just hard 'cause I'm still, like, bitter around, uh- Yeah ... like, having to worry about it ever. Yeah. Yeah, I totally get that. But what's your testimony? Sorry. Oh, sorry. You, you went long. Yeah, we're r- we are running long, but I'm enjoying the conversation. Um- Oh ... my testimony is on Toy Story 5, because I thought it would be awful.
I was like, "Why are they making a fifth one? The fourth one wasn't even good." And I love Disney, you know? Uh-huh. You do. I work there. I'm a Disney girl. Um, but I, I wasn't gonna see it in theaters, but then, like I said, it was hot yesterday, and we were all just like, "Well, we could run the AC at our house and do something, or we could go use the theater's AC."
So we went and saw Toy Story 5, and it was so good. Yeah? I... It was adorable. I enjoyed it so much. I was like, well, this is just as good as the other ones. Like, definitely better- Did you cry? ... than the fourth Um, no, I didn't cry, but someone I was with cried a lot. And I was making fun of them. You were making fun of them?
Mm-hmm. Did you do, did you do the dad thing where you're like... No, I didn't do that, but I leaned over and I was like, "You have tears running down your face." Oh, no. Like, multiple tears, and oh my gosh, it was so cute. Aw. They're so cute. That is adorable. Um, I did have a moment that I cried this week, though, because I went and saw Louis Tomlinson, and I do love One Direction.
Oh. He's a member of One Direction, so they- Right. Yeah, one- It took me a minute. I got it. Yeah. Yeah, so I got tickets for, like, $27, and me and my coworker were like, "Well, should we just go for $27 a ticket?" Yeah. And then I was just having a moment where I was like, "Wow," like, I didn't get to see One Direction in concert because it just wasn't- Mm
feasible for me at the time, right? Like, it w- Yeah ... just was, like, super expensive. We live in a place where we'd have to travel all the way to Salt Lake to see them. And I was just having a moment where I was like, "I'm a big girl," and I, like, have created a lot of things for myself that I enjoy, like, or I get to do a lot of things- Aw
that I wanted to do when I was younger. So it was a very good moment, and also I was sad because Liam's dead, and he sang his song- Yeah ... about Liam. Aw. That was kind of two testimonies, but- That's okay. I love it ... I'm just, you know, I'm not heartless. I, uh, just 'cause I didn't cry at Toy Story 5. Oh. I do cry. I haven't seen it, so I will have to watch for it.
It's cute. It's cute. It's definitely good. Yeah, okay. Worth watching. Good to know. Okay. So today we wanted to circle back, I guess, to the point of this podcast- Mm-hmm ... and talk about what are the steps to reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. And s- steps is kind of a weird word 'cause it's not like a s- step-by-step process, right?
The, but these are just more- Yeah. Mm. And we kind of did it in a linear order, but it's not even, it's not even linear. Like, we were talking about this. I guess some context for this is this is the first episode that we're recording after actually posting the podcast, and after putting, like, you know, six months worth of, of episodes that we've had in the backlog out.
Mm-hmm. And, um, that's brought up a lot of feelings, and, and we've, we've kind of had to, like, put our money where our mouth is when it comes to, like, this isn't linear and there's always gonna be things that need to be fixed, and sometimes things that need to be- Right ... revisited and healed. Yeah, 100%. And, um, yeah, it's just ongoing work, right?
It's a, it's, it's just an ongoing process. But- It is ... but I'm excited to talk about these things today because, 'cause these are some things that have really helped us for sure. Mm-hmm. And, um, that, you know, that w- didn't necessarily come naturally, that we had to learn. Mm-hmm. And, um, and so- I think another thing to just acknowledge is it took us a while to get to this podcast even though we knew that this was an episode we wanted to create because, A, it's really hard to be like, "Here's what we did, and you should follow it perfectly," because it's not perfect and it doesn't- Mm, mm
you know, it's ha- it's not like we've done it perfectly- No ... all the time. And so it's hard to be like, "Oh, we have so much advice on it." And also, like- Right ... I think it took a lot of reflection to be like, "Okay, in all we went through, what worked, and what, what was the most helpful?" Yes. So we are coming to this, I guess, from a place of having thought about it, having discussed it quite a bit.
Yeah. And I do think that we've come to some really good steps. Yes. Well, and like you, you said that we ha- didn't do all of these things perfectly. We still- No ... don't do all of these things perfectly. Right? Yeah. Yeah. We still have, definitely have moments. I mean- Mm-hmm ... we still definitely have struggles that we, we just kind of...
But I think that the biggest thing is just to continue to keep working through them, and to be committed- Yeah ... to the process of it. So. And I definitely think in here we have some principles that, like, when I'm upset with you or when I'm upset with one of my siblings that, like, I can come back to, and just realize- Mm-hmm
that we're all imperfect people loving each other imperfectly. And- Yes ... and just kind of reset and be like, "Okay, what can I do when it feels like this issue is so insurmountable? Where do I start?" Yeah. Okay, so to start off with, we said to create your own emotional safety So I think this is our first step because it is the first action you have to take, is to make sure that you're okay.
Um, so sometimes that is, like, setting boundaries for yourself and communicating those boundaries. Um, it's about finding tools to deal with repair, um, and also making sure that you can meet your own emotional needs. So my grandma told me this story when I was a little girl, and I've told this story probably a million times, so you may have heard it before, but, um, well, I know you've heard it before, but- But it was the story of, like, this, this guy died and went to heaven, and, um, he was taken to this room, and everybody in the room was just miserable, and sad, and sulking, and it...
he could see in the s- the corner of the room there was, like, this full banquet table of food, but everybody looked like they were just starving. And, like, he looked around the room and he saw that nobody had any elbows, so they couldn't get the food to their mouth, right? And so then he... they took him to another room, and the same thing, there was this full banquet table of food, but everybody was happy, and everybody was well-fed, and all of this kind of stuff.
So he was looking around and he noticed that they were feeding each other. So this was, like, a really sweet story that my grandma told me, and, like, the point of it is that we're supposed to serve one another. Mm-hmm. Right? And I absolutely do believe that we should serve one another, and that we're happiest when we're helping each other.
Yeah. But you have to be able to feed yourself, right? Like, I mean, if you just- Mm-hmm ... take this back to, like, when you're, when you're a newborn baby, you have to have somebody feed you, and you can't feed anybody else. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And I'm just using food as a metaphor for, for our emotional needs. Yeah.
But you have to have somebody feed you, and then you start to learn to feed yourself, and then you start to learn to feed yourself and others, right? Mm-hmm. But you should never expect somebody else to always meet your needs. That's ridiculous. Yeah. And, and painful for you, right? Because if you're waiting for somebody else to feed you and you don't feel like you can feed yourself, then that's a huge issue.
Yeah. And I think it is a good allegory. Like, I, I've heard that story in the church and outside of the church a lot. Like, we do need to build community, we do need to help one another. Mm-hmm. However, like you're saying, you can't be helpless. Like w- like, we're not in a situation where we don't have elbows.
There's plenty that you can do for yourself and you should do for yourself. So part one is just find those emotional tools to do your own repair and, and realize- Yeah ... that some of the things you have to take responsibility for, some of the things you have to take, uh, care of your own emotions. Right. And as, like, particularly with LDS mothers, that's not selfish, right?
It is not selfish to take care of yourself. Because a lot of times we think that anything that we do for ourselves to take care of ourselves emotionally is selfish and self-centered, and that, that that's, like, that is absolutely not okay to be- Mm-hmm ... selfish and self-centered ch- in the church. But it's actually more selfish and self-centered to expect other people to always take care of you.
Yeah. Which I think, that was just a hard lesson for me, so I think that- Mm-hmm ... that's why I'm kind of emphasizing that so much. But, but you do have to meet your own emotional needs. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Especially when you're coming to a conversation with e- with somebody else, you can't start that conversation if you can't get past your own emotions.
Mm-hmm. Then the conversation's just about whoever's emotions in that situation. Right. And it's okay to talk about your feelings, it's okay to say, "Oh, I felt this way about it," but if you're still feeling that level of hurt even just describing it- Mm-hmm ... you need to take a second to take care of that. Um- Yeah
and from the child perspective, a lot of stuff that I needed from you is I did need you to acknowledge things that hurt me. Um- Mm-hmm ... but there was nothing that you could have ever done that would have healed that hurt. Like, pieces of that I had to take care of on my own. Right. Right. What are some things that helped you when you were going through this, or still help you to create your emotional safety?
Well, I was thinking that I wanted to give, like, a more concrete example, because, like, if I'm coming to you and needing you to tell me that I'm okay, right? Mm-hmm. If I'm expecting, as, as your mother, if I'm coming to you and expecting you to give me self-worth, like, to validate my existence and my reason for being- Mm
that's, that's a huge burden to put on you. I think that's where a lot of people fall into the, "I guess I'm just a bad mother," argument. Yes. 100%, right? Because when I say to you, I, I- I guess I was just a terrible mother, then that's, that's what that is. That's a cry for validation. Mm-hmm. And it, and it's hard, right?
Because you have to back up and you have to validate yourself in that situation, and you have to take accountability for the ways that you were a bad mother- Mm-hmm ... and that's important. And then you have to forgive yourself for being a bad mother, which is another emotional need, is that forgiveness, right?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then I can be emotionally available for you, right? And then I can tolerate you not forgiving me or struggling to forgive me, right? Like, if I can understand, if I can get to a place where I'm okay, and this is, like, this is hard. Yeah. This is hard stuff to do. This is hard work. Yeah. But and you don't have to be, like, like we said at the beginning, it's kind of an ongoing thing.
You don't have to be perfect at it. But if I show up and I'm already in a kind of vulnerable place, it's really easy for us to trigger each other, right? Right. And so- And then, like, you can't address what I'm discussing because now I have to stop and address, "Well, you aren't always a terrible mother."
Right. And I think that what that actually looks like in practice, in o- in ongoing practice, is there are times that I've told you that, like, "I don't wanna talk to you right now- Mm-hmm ... or I need space." Mm-hmm. Like, that's a big thing for me when I'm getting emotional, is I need space, I need space. Um- Uh-huh
but I think that when we come to a conversation where you understand in yourself that being a mother is hard, that it is nuanced, that you did a lot of things to do your best, and also sometimes you failed and sometimes you hurt me even when you were trying to help me. Mm-hmm. And I can come to the conversation and say, "I was not a perfect daughter.
I've not always been emotionally responsible, but I'm also the child, and it's okay that, like, I wasn't always the emotional, um, stability in, in our relationship." Yeah. If we can come and just accepting that and understanding that, then we can actually discuss within that framework- Yeah ... instead of having to tiptoe around each other's emotions or constantly- Yeah
validate one another. Yeah. Yeah. And when I'm not having to argue, like, I'm not saying you're a terrible mom, then it is easier for me to say, "Yeah, you are a good mom, and there are things that I appreciate." Mm-hmm. Because I can say that outside of the times when I am needing another discussion from you.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think just high level, just understanding, okay, this is, this is difficult work and it's hard to do, and even if we're really mad at each other right now in the moment, we're going to do that, that work, right? Mm-hmm. We're gonna back it up. We're gonna do that work. We're gonna come back to it kind of thing, so.
Yeah. Okay. I think step one takes a really long time because we're talking about years of therapy and, and individual work and lots of, like, other tools and practices that you need, too, and trying to put it into one step. But within a relationship, that is the first step. Okay. So step two is establishing a shared want for a relationship, which sounds silly and sounds, like, obvious, but it is important, especially from the child's side, especially if you've left a family, to say, "I do want a relationship with you."
And I think from the adult's side, it's important to say, "I love you and I want a relationship with you, even if you're not fitting everything that I want you to be." Yeah. Well, and I think because I've kind of been through this a little bit with some of you guys, um, but sometimes that feels very one-sided, right?
Mm-hmm. Sometimes it feels like the kid is just, like, your kid is just like, "No, I don't want," um, like, "I'm cutting you off. I can't deal with this anymore." And so when it feels really one-sided, when it feels like, then, then that's when you have to be really patient and open. Because the temptation is to be like, "Okay, fine.
If you don't want a relationship with me, then I don't want a relationship with you." Mm-hmm. And I see, like, I see mothers doing this online, which is scary to me. Really? Yeah, which is just like, "I can never be good enough for them, and so I'm just cutting them out of my life." Mm-hmm. So I, I don't know. For me, it was just like, okay, I, I want that bad enough that I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay patient and open and let them know that I am still always and forever here, no matter what.
Mm-hmm. Um, but also, um, you can't, like, keep poking at them. Yeah. And I've definitely made this mistake, right? Yeah. Um, because it's just like, "No, please, please, please, come back. Please, come back to me." Yeah. And that just pushes it, that has pushed us farther away. And so you have to- Well, it makes it, it makes it hard to come back in your own time.
Sorry, what was I gonna say? No, say more about that because, because, 'cause I've done this to you. I think what we're discussing is an ego death, right? In any relationship, like any friendship, it is very hard when there's discontent or when the other person feels like they're upset with you to not just be like, "Oh, I'll be upset back at you."
It, it takes, like, really killing your ego to say, "I understand that there's things wrong here. I would like to work through them." Mm-hmm. "And when you want to, that door's open." Um, and it is, it is like putting the love over yourself, and I do think that there is time for you to put yourself first. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that you can certainly set boundaries that are emotionally safe to you.
I think that there's time that you can take on your own to honor your emotions. But if we're all just super prideful, if we're hanging onto that so much, that's not gonna breed a good relationship. Yeah. For sure. And I do think f- from what you're saying of, like, when you are constantly reaching out and saying, "No, please respond to me.
Please let me fix this right now. Please love me right now." Mm-hmm. That's not taking care of step one. Yeah. It is not coming as an emotionally fulfilled person. And from the child side, it... or, or from, I guess, the person that's distant side- Mm-hmm ... it puts a lot of pressure to solve everything now when I'm not necessarily ready to.
Yeah. And it also means that, you know, when I start feeling like- Okay, maybe I can reach out in this way that I feel comfortable. Like, when, when you start feeling that way, when you're like, "Okay, maybe I'll write mom a letter, or maybe I'll go to the next, um, family event," right? Mm-hmm. And then mom's text to you is like, "I love you and I love to hear from you whenever I..."
And l- And it's just like, it, it sets you back and you're like, "Okay, I, I can't engage with that." So- Yeah ... I think it's just leaving that door open, making it clear, "I love you. When you're ready, I'd love to talk to you." Mm-hmm. Or, "I'd love to engage with you in a way that you feel comfortable, and I'm here."
Mm-hmm. And then just letting them figure that out. Yeah. Again, not something that I've done perfectly. No, and, and me either. Like, I've had, I've had other relationships where, like, I've been, like, feeling that, that wound of love me now, fix this now. I can't handle this unknowing if you're going to come back and want a relationship with me.
Yeah. Like, it is really, like, a lot of work of taking care of yourself and a lot of work of, like, yeah, killing your pride and saying- Yeah ... "Okay, I understand- Yeah ... you don't wanna talk to me right now, and when you're ready, we'll have that discussion." And, and it doesn't mean that the person that's not talking to you right now is absolutely right.
When, when you're leaving that door open and the other person's away or not engaging, that doesn't mean that the other person's right. It doesn't mean that when you do re-engage, there aren't things that you can say, "This hurt me," or, "This is how I'm feeling, and I'd love to have this resolved." Mm-hmm. But it is leaving the door open for a resolution- Yeah
eventually. Yeah. Again, it, n- it's hard work. It's hard to do. I was thinking about that this morning, is that relationships really are shadow work. Yeah. It's, it's dealing with, it's dealing with your hard themes. And it's a lot of patience. Mm-hmm. I do wanna say in practice something that I think helped was when I was initially going to leave the church or, like, do something that you and Dad didn't approve of, uh, which was, like, move in with my boyfriend at the time.
I did ask you directly. I said, "Hey, if I move in with my boyfriend, are you gonna cut me off?" And the answer could have been yes, but, like, I feel like that was me saying, "This is what I'm going to do. Is this door open, going to be open, or is it going to be closed?" Instead of just living in the uncertainty or living in the, well, if they act any way, then I'm going to shut down.
Like, I think it, I made it clear that, like, I wanted a relationship, but also I was going to do this, and if you wanna- Yeah ... have a relationship with me while I do this, then okay. Right. Well, and I think that's very true in general when kids... Because adult children, your adult children are going to make their own decisions.
They're not asking- Mm-hmm ... your permission. They're not asking your approval. They're, they're saying, "This is what I'm going to do. Are you gonna come along for the ride, or are you going to remove yourself from my life?" I also think that, like we said, this is ongoing, so there are times where, like, I don't want to talk to you for whatever reason.
Like, something's happened, and I'm upset, but- Mm-hmm ... I think it's the understanding that- I do want this relationship, I am invested in this relationship, and I will come back in time and, and talk to you. Yeah. And I will try to fix this. And I think we've built that trust with one another- Mm-hmm ... that we're, we may hit snags, but we will do what we can to fix this.
Yeah. And I think that, like it, I took a couple of, of hard things going through that to kind of, um, get to that point where we, where we both knew that we were both committed to it. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. So number three is to create opportunities to connect with each other, right? Because when your kids are still in your home, then of course, you know, you have daily inter- interactions and that kind of thing.
But when, when your kids move out of your home and when they become adults and they move away, it's, it's not just a natural thing that, that happens all the time. And so- Um, it's been really important, I think, for us, and, and we've gotten better about it over the years, is to make sure that we create time to connect with each other.
W- that we plan vacations, that we plan times to get together, that we ti- plan times to, um, connect. For us, well, for one of the first things that we did in our family was we started a Zoom meeting when you moved to Florida, and we would meet, um, every Sunday night on Zoom, and we've been doing that for, gosh, for like 10 years now.
A decade. Yeah. That's crazy. Mm-hmm. And thank goodness for Zoom. Like that's- Mm-hmm ... such a blessing. And it's not ideal. It's, like I would rather have everybody over here every Sunday night. But where you guys have moved away, it helps to have that, um, connecting point. And then also just, like, making sure that we do family vacations and making sure that we do reunions and get together for holidays and just, like, being intentional about creating that shared space.
Yeah. And I think it's important that these are low pressure in a lot of situations. Mm-hmm. Like, this isn't a therapy session. This isn't, I need to talk to you about why I'm upset or why I am not as connected to you right now or have a whole therapy session with you. I think that it's making time for us to connect in the ways that we already overlap and care about each other and enjoy each other's company- Mm-hmm
um, without having to address everything right away. Because I think when there is, like, hurt in a relationship, it's very hard to not make every interaction about trying to solve that hurt. Yeah. But then every interaction you have is somewhat, I don't wanna say bad, but stressful or high pressure or not, not the fun enjoyment - Yeah
aspects of a relationship. And I think it's important to have specific time for both things, to say, "Hey, when you have time, I'd love to talk to you about this thing," but also making sure that we're continuing to create good connections with one another and good memories with another and having shared enjoyment.
Right. And that not everything has to be solved in order for those things to happen. Yeah. Right? That there might be this kind of thing simmering in the background that we're frustrated about, but also we can go for a walk and, and talk about other things. Yeah. And it, and it is finding that overlap where we still connect, we still enjoy similar things, where we enjoy each other.
I see a lot of parents whose kids leave the church making the same mistake of like, "Come to church, come to church. We'd love to see you at church. We'd love to see you on Sunday. We'd love to see you during this." Or, or it doesn't even have to be parents and kids, it could be like if you have a friend that leaves the church.
When really it should be like, "Hey, like let's go get a soda together or, you know, we'd love to see you for dinner on a Tuesday." Or- Sure ... something that's not related to the thing that's currently causing tension in your relationship or trying to change one another. It's finding where you o- where your lives already overlap to and connect.
Yeah And I think that's why the Zoom meeting works really well for us is because we don't always make every Zoom meeting, and there's some Zoom meetings where it is just you alone, and you text the group chat, and you're like, "Is anyone coming?" And there have been months at a time where somebody doesn't come or- Yeah
or whatever. But, but it's very low pressure for when you do come in and when you do wanna show up, and it's always there for you to show up. Yeah. I do get a little sad when nobody comes. Sorry. It's okay. Well, it's also... We do it every Sunday, and sometimes we're busy, and sometimes it's like somebody hops on for 20 minutes just to say hi.
Right. But it's continuing that connection, and it's just having a touch base and having a, a space where we enjoy one another. Yeah. Yeah. Number four is listening to each other, which seems, again, obvious, but is very difficult in practice. Mm-hmm. Um, it's really hard to hear someone that you disagree with out and, um, not defending yourself.
Yes. It can be really... And this, I mean, this all, this relates back to the first one, too, right? Because if you haven't worked through your own stuff and taking care yourself emotionally, th- then it's much harder to listen. Yeah. But yeah, one of the skills that I've had to learn with listening is to set down the idea of being right.
Like, we all think we're right all the time. Mm-hmm. Like, that is just the human condition is that you, you think you're right. Yeah. Um, I've really had to learn to practice seeing things, like, I call it mental gymnastics, and I know that, like, a lot of people use that as a bad term. But, like, the b- ability to see things from a lot of different perspectives, see, "Oh, okay, I can see why you arrived at that conclusion," or why this is in your life and make you think that.
I can als- I can see why this seems reasonable to you because we all have our, our own perspective on things. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, just getting to a point, like, just really recognizing- Okay, I know I think I'm right because that's the human condition, but I also know that I probably am wrong in a lot of ways, and- Mm-hmm
let me listen to what you're saying to see if I can see where I'm wrong. Yeah. And I think it's also important to realize that we don't have to have an objective truth between the two of us to get along or to have a relationship. Um, there certainly are things that are important to each of us, that it is important that we're on the same page at, on to have a relationship.
Like, there are beliefs that you could hold that would make me not want a relationship with you, but when it comes to is there a God or not, we don't have to agree on that to have a relationship. Right. It doesn't actually affect our day-to-day that much. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that that's gonna be different from relationship to relationship, right?
Mm-hmm. Like if they're... Well, and I think you have to be deliberate about what those things are, right? Mm-hmm. Because there are some parents that are just like, "No, if you, if you don't believe in God in the way that I believe in God, then, then we can't have this relationship," right? And I think that that's- Mm.
You know, you've talked about that before, where y- you were just like s- or, "I really wanted you guys to leave the church at some point." Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? And, and so just being deliberate about, like, okay, is this belief more important than the relationship? Is this something that is an impasse for me?
Yeah. And deciding those things intentionally. Well, and to get more realistic and get more specific with examples, it is important to me that you understand that it was bad that- People couldn't have the, or Black people couldn't have the priesthood in the church- Mm-hmm ... until a certain point. It's important to me that you agree that it is bad for Joseph Smith to be having relations with a 14-year-old.
Like, it's important for me that we live on those objective truths- Mm-hmm ... just like I'm sure that there are other objective truths on your end that it's important that we agree on. But I can have the, the flexibility to understand where your f- viewpoint lies and where that doesn't make you someone who's morally opposed to me- Mm-hmm
or someone that I can't have a relationship with. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have to exist in somewhat of the same moral framework of this is- Yeah ... this is good and this is bad. Yeah. And, you know. And it feels crazy to say, like, having mental flexibility in a world where, like, we are existing with a lot of people that just can't agree on a reality or where lots of things seem in flux.
Mm-hmm. But I think when you're building a relationship with someone who you have disagreements with, it is important to be able to listen to them and at least hear where they're coming from. Yeah. I mean, I guess another way I would say that would be to just be able to take other perspectives, right? Yeah.
So number five is that we need to take ownership of our mistakes, and we've talked about this a little bit already. Mm-hmm. But- Yeah ... it is important to be able to say, "Okay, I can see how, how this hurts you, and I'm sorry." I think that it's just really important when you are hearing someone out to understand where they're coming from when it comes to the hurt that may have been caused, and to be able to say, "I'm sorry, you didn't deserve that," or- Yeah
"That shouldn't have happened that way, and I, I apologize." I think it's also important to take ownership, not just in an apology, but also in, like, changes that may need to happen. Yeah, changing your behavior. Like, that was a big deal to me was to see you be a different parent to my younger siblings than to me- Mm-hmm
in certain ways. Uh, that felt like there was some ownership happening. Well, I think that when you realize something was a mistake, then you're not going to keep- Mm-hmm ... repeating that. You're not gonna keep doing it. I mean, we kind of do, right? Like, we kind of do s- tend to make the same mistakes, but we definitely try harder not to when we, when we see- Mm
that something actually wasn't, wasn't a good course of act- action. And so while I think part of that too is making a safe place for each other, like the fact that you were able to forgive me for those mistakes, and that you don't- Mm ... like continually hold them over my head and keep reminding me of those mistakes, do you know?
That, that is huge too. Like, and so for me, it's, it's been a safety thing, right? Like, learning to fi- to figure out that, okay, it is actually safe for me to take ownership of my mistakes, and it's not, it's not going to damage our relationship. It's going to heal our relationship when I do that. Right. Right.
Because I, I do feel like where some people fall, and then where we have honestly in the past fallen, is you fall into this trap of, like, starting to make the excuse first of, like, "Well, I did my best," or, "Well, I was 16," or- Mm ... "Well, I-" Mm ... "you know, had this going on." And I think it's important to just acknowledge, like, "That shouldn't have happened."
And, and then I think you can get into the nuance of understanding one another and giving each other grace. It's a lot- Yeah ... easier for me to give you grace when I feel like you understand that even though it's a nuanced situation, I shouldn't have been treated that way, or that shouldn't have- Yeah ... have happened.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to your point, like, it's not like, "Well, I was doing my best, so I, I didn't- Mm-hmm ... make a mistake." But I mean, going back to the very first one again, like, I was doing my best, and also- Mm-hmm ... this was not okay, right? Yeah. Because I think the excuses are like, okay, acknowledge and take care of yourself.
Like, okay, I really was, I really was trying my hardest, and also- Mm-hmm ... this was still harmful. This was still hurtful. Yeah. So. And like you s- to your point, I do think that it leads to a lot more healing. I do think that it's hard, because it kind of feels like if you're admitting you were wrong, then you're admitting that you were a bad mom, or that you didn't love y- you know, this person, or, or all of these other things.
It can feel as if once you admit that you did something wrong, then it's over. It's done. You're wrong. Like, I don't have to talk- Yes ... to you anymore. Yeah. And I hear you when you're talking about the safety of, like, saying, "I can admit that I have made a mistake, and I can be met with the grace of it was a mistake."
Yeah. Yeah. Growth mindset. Growth mindset. So I think the first five are a great s- starting place for creating emotional safety for yourself, for the person you're interacting with, and being able to engage with them in a healthy way that's going to lead to more reconnection. Yeah. Um, and we're gonna wrap this episode up, and we're gonna do a part two with the other five, but, um, do you have any other final thoughts that you wanted to- On these ones?
I mean, no, it's, it's interesting to reflect back and see where we have done this well and where we haven't. And- Uh-huh ... and l- like we said, reflect on how we're continually trying to implement these in our relationships. Yeah. And just letting it be a process, right? Mm-hmm. Because, you know, I can tell you stories of yesterday where I screwed this up, but we will continue to con- to work through things and just let it be a process.
Okay. Well, thank you for having this conversation with me, and I love you. I love you, too. Talk to you soon. We'll talk soon. Okay. Bye.