[00:00:00]
[00:00:05] Hi, I'm Kari.
[00:00:06] And I'm Kimberly, and This is Coffee and Coco, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith.
[00:00:12] We are a mother and daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. So do you have a testimony today?
[00:00:21] I do.
[00:00:21] I'm gonna bear my testimony about The Pit, the TV show, as an auditory experience. Have you watched it?
[00:00:30] I have not.
[00:00:31] Okay.
[00:00:31] Is it on Apple?
[00:00:32] What's it on?
[00:00:33] It's on HBO. Oh, okay. And true to HBO form, they, like, really push the rating. Um, it's very gory 'cause it's in an emergency room situation, and we do great with gore.
[00:00:44] Um, our gag reflex is not great. Like, if you put me or one of my sisters or my mom or grandma in a situation-
[00:00:53] No, thank you.
[00:00:54] Yeah, like, like we will be going so easily. So I really wanna watch the show because everyone's talking about it and talking how amazing it is. So I was like, "Okay, let me just try," and I put it on my phone while I got ready, so I'm just kind of like looking over, glancing over, seeing the characters.
[00:01:11] . Like, the gore hasn't affected me at all because I just am getting ready, like I look away. It's a great auditory experience. Like, I'm really excited to, like, know all the, the drama. The squelching gets a little much sometimes, but- but, like, it's been okay. It's, it hasn't been too much. Um, it's a great auditory experience.
[00:01:29] I would, I would recommend not to watch it, but to listen to it.
[00:01:34] Okay. That's good to know. That's good to know. Yeah, I, I guess that there's an argument to be made for art being true to life or whatever like that, but I'm, uh, you know, stuff I don't need to see.
[00:01:46] Yeah. For some people, like, that's the draw.
[00:01:48] Right.
[00:01:49] Which I think that there's, like, some argument to be, be made. Like, I think that it can be used well. Um, and I, I assume that they use it well 'cause a lot of people like it, but, um, I just can't handle it. It doesn't add to my experience. Okay.
[00:02:05] Okay, I'm going to bear my testimony about karaoke. How about that?
[00:02:10] Um- Yeah ... we had, just had a, a karaoke night last night, and it was, like, a Broadway-themed karaoke. Mm-hmm. So there's a show on London's West End- Mm-hmm ... that's called, uh, The Role I'll Never Play. Uh, and it's just like, I just follow it on social media, but it's, it's like white people singing a song that is in a role for a Black person or, you know, a man singing a song that's in a role for a woman.
[00:02:34] Mm-hmm. That, that, the, you know, things that you would never have the opportunity to play, you have, you, you go and do. I think I've seen this. Like, I've seen, like, a really, like, skinny person, like, singing Good Morning Baltimore, and it's like I- Right, right, right. Yeah ... like, I, I don't fit the casting for this role.
[00:02:47] Yeah. But I love the song. So we kind of riffed on that, and we did a karaoke night called I'll Never Be on Broadway or whatever, and just, um, everybody was supposed to bring a song that they would love to play on Broadway that they'll probably never have an opportunity to get out there. But, and it was just, and it was just karaoke, but it was super fun.
[00:03:06] Yeah. We had such a good time. And- I love a good karaoke night. Yeah, yeah. I haven't done a whole lot of karaoke, but, um- That's 'cause you don't drink. If you drank, you'd do more karaoke. Well, and I was thinking that last night because, you know, of course it's, it's in a little bar and stuff and, um- Mm-hmm
[00:03:24] and there were people drinking. I'm like, "You know, this probably would be more fun if I had a few less inhibitions." Like, they look like they're- Yeah ... really having a good time. But, you know- I think I've also, like, gone to a bar and, like, just not been drinking that night and done karaoke, and it's still fun.
[00:03:39] Yeah. It's just, like, karaoke happens where people are drinking for the most part. Oh, is that what it is? Yeah. That's what I think. Um, but, um, what song did you do? I actually didn't do a song. But I had fun watching. I know. Don't be mad at me. I, there was a lot of people. I'm not mad at you. I'm just disappointed.
[00:04:05] I was gonna take that part out, but now we have to keep it in. No, we're, we're hoping to do it like a quarterly thing. Yeah. And so- So next time. Yeah, so next time I will. But no, I get it. If there's a, a lot of people, you're like trying to give space for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. But so Easter was last week, and I just was thinking about the whole...
[00:04:30] You know, because a lot of our holidays are just very religious and that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And I know that that's changed the experience for you. Mm-hmm. And having kids out of the church has changed the experience for me. But I wanted to just start by asking, what do you remember about Easter growing up?
[00:04:46] Like what were your experiences and- See, I feel like Easter is an easy one because all the fun parts aren't related to church really. Like they're not really related to like religion or church. Mm-hmm. I remember hunting for eggs. We always did that. Um, do you know what I love that our family does, is Dad always dyes an egg, like-
[00:05:11] in every dye and creates like a brown or a gray or a dark purple egg, and then because of the color, it's harder to find. And so whoever finds it gets a special prize. And honestly, I don't even remember what the different prizes are for finding it because it's, it's mostly the status symbol of, "I found where Dad hid the egg."
[00:05:31] Like he does it so, he makes it so hard. That's so funny. But that's, that's a good one. We, we had baskets. Uh, dressing up for church. Mm-hmm. Ooh, there's some really good pictures that I was looking at the other day of all of us in front of the house, and I remember I was in a green dress, and I had that white hat that went with it.
[00:05:50] Yes. That was so cute, and I think my sisters were matching. It was just like really cute. Mm-hmm. So we did the whole dress up and go to church, and also we always had ham and yummy potatoes, which are called funeral potatoes by most people, but we call them yummy potatoes. Or we would have roast if we were at Grandma's house.
[00:06:11] Yes. That's so funny because, 'cause we went to Grandma's house last weekend, and she cooked roast one day and ham the next day. And honestly, I've been eyeing some Crock-Pots on, on Facebook Mark- Marketplace, because you have to be really careful in New York with what appliances you get because there's so little space.
[00:06:32] Oh, the space. And so like I don't have a toaster because I don't eat toast that often. If I do, I can just like make it the old-fashioned way. Mm-hmm. But, uh, I have been eyeing a Crock-Pot just to make roast because I'm like, "That is a solid meal." Right, I was gonna say, of course, I remember all of the religious stuff around it.
[00:06:49] That's just like not the fun part of it and wasn't. Right. Whereas I think something like Christmas, a lot of the stuff that I did like was like particularly religious music really speaks to me. Mm-hmm. So but Easter's an easy one. Interesting. Yeah. So what I remember, like, raising you guys is that Easter was always kind of a disappointment because it is so cold here on Easter.
[00:07:13] Mm-hmm. And, like, I grew up in Henderson, which is right by Vegas. In Henderson, it was very warm on Easter. It was really beautiful outside. It was a great time for picnics. We did outdoor Easter egg hunts. Um, we had-- we always had a picnic with, like, all of my aunts and uncles and grandparents, and we-- it was a huge thing.
[00:07:32] And sometimes we would actually go to Zion National Park 'cause my grandparents had a second home up there. And we would-- everybody would go up there and spend time, and it was, and it was warm and beautiful, and I was always so frustrated when we would have Easter in Elko because it was so cold all the time.
[00:07:52] I remember, like, dressing you up in all these cute little Easter dresses, and you, like, freezing to death because you know, shorts and everything Putting the coat over it. Yes. And you want it to be warm, but it's not, so that's funny. But, um- Yeah ... it was, but yeah ... warmer in Elko this week, by the way, than in New York, and I was looking in jealousy, 'cause I'm struggling- Oh
[00:08:13] the same way you're saying, where I'm like, "But it's supposed to be warm." But your trees are blooming and stuff. That's so fun. Yes, and it is still cold, which is hard. Oh. I know. Spring is kind of the worst season for that reason, because you want it to be warm so bad, and most of the time- Mm-hmm ... it's, it's cold.
[00:08:31] And the worst part is it's my favorite season. Yeah. But it's like, it's like an abusive relationship. The good times, the good days are just so fabulous, and you're like- Yeah. ... life has never been better. Like, I was riding, I was riding my bike down the Westside Highway. Oh. There were blossoms. There's, um, daffodils that are planted on the side.
[00:08:52] Oh. Smelled good. Yeah. Like, I could smell them. It was warm. I was next to the ocean. I was like, "There's never been a better day," and then it was just so cold. It was, like, 30 degrees the next day. It is. That is so real. Yeah, an abusive relationship. That's hilarious. Keeps me hanging on for the good days.
[00:09:10] Anyways, religiously, though, like, I mean, 'cause we did go to church- Mm-hmm ... always on Easter. Well, except for when it was conference weekend, which it was conference weekend pretty often. Um- Yeah. But, like, then we would watch conference together, which- Mm-hmm ... conference weekends, I will say, are, like, a holiday I do miss.
[00:09:29] Like, I miss having an excuse of, like, this is our weekend where we just sit in a blanket all day, and there's cinnamon rolls. Yeah. And there's, like, no equivalent really, except to just- Right ... decide to do that. But I, to, to your and Dad's credit, like, I was a kid, so I remember the fun stuff, but we did discuss Christ a lot, and I remember that there was an effort put in to, like, keep everything Christ-centered for both, like, Easter and Christmas, which are the major- Mm-hmm
[00:09:57] religious holidays- Yeah ... Christians practice. That's an interesting balance, because, because there was one lady in our ward who, like, for Christmas, she would only put symbols of Christ on their Christmas tree. Their tree was entirely decorated in sym- symbols of Christ, and she- Mm-hmm ... like, there was nothing to do with Santa Claus.
[00:10:14] I, I don't remember if they did gifts or not. It was so Christ-focused. Yes. It's just funny how, like, we all find our balance of things, because I'm like, "No, that's way too religious," right? But I definitely- Mm-hmm ... wanted some religion in it. Well, and I can definitely- empathize with, like, the want to be as perfect as possible or as- Mm-hmm
[00:10:36] like, true to this Christ you believe in as possible. Well, so the last few years there's been a p- push in the church to put more emphasis on Easter, because it, it always has been kind of a secondary holiday to Christmas or something like that. Mm-hmm. Like, not as big of a deal. Mm-hmm. And the church really has tried to encourage us to make it a bigger deal.
[00:10:57] Let me know if I'm stepping on your toes, but I'm really glad we're discussing this because I noticed this year- Mm-hmm ... every single Mormon on my feed was posting about Palm Sunday- Yeah ... and Good Friday, and I was like, "We didn't practice that." Like- Yeah ... that was not a thing growing up. Yeah. It's been an interesting, kind of a new emphasis, and I like it.
[00:11:18] It's cool. I have enjoyed the more traditional Christian representations of like, okay, this is the Holy Week, um, and this is what happened- Mm-hmm ... on this day and what we're celebrating. That's the other funny thing ab- about Easter is it's, like, Easter eggs and also, um, state-sanctioned murder, right?
[00:11:39] Because- Right ... it is about the death of Christ and the resurrection, which is the celebration part, but, but definitely the fact that he was brutally killed and then- Well, isn't it because it's com- same with Christmas, like they're combined with popular, like, pagan holidays at the time. Yeah. So this is- Something like that, yeah
[00:11:55] because all of the fertility symbols of Easter- Right ... are because it's spri- like, eggs, rabbits. Yeah. You know? Well, and that's an idea I've been playing with lately is that we're talking about the same things in different language, right? Because it's all about, like, renewal and rebirth and- Mm-hmm ... the cycles of things.
[00:12:17] And in, you know, in Christianity it's that Christ rose from the dead. Well, spring is about the world rising basically from the, from the death, and that's also- Mm-hmm ... what, like, the pagan rituals were about, coming back to life. Growing again. Yeah. Yeah. I remember growing up there was a heavy emphasis more in the church, like, on the atonement than on the actual crucifixion because the atonement was, like, Christ paying for our sins and all that.
[00:12:45] Like, that's why the church doesn't, or used to not, wear crosses or have cross symbols, but I heard that that's changed. Yeah. So I do... With that, I mean, with the end of winter like we're discussing and, like, the beginning of spring and the renewal, I think that that goes hand-in-hand with the idea of an atonement of, uh, bad things happen and we'll get through and it's okay and- Yeah
[00:13:09] it's a cycle, and no matter how harsh the winter is, like, you can begin again. Yeah. I guess I wanted to ask you, like, what do you believe about Jesus Christ at this point? Yeah. I-- That's interesting because I've actually been, like, looking into a lot of stuff about how we've recorded things for years and how we lost records of things.
[00:13:33] And what I found was that a lot of the historical records that we don't have are simply because whatever paper or organic fiber that they were written on or kept on just didn't last, right? Like r- like papyrus, it just didn't last. And you had to have people copy all of these histories down. And the reason that we have, like, the Bible and that survived so long is because the people who were picking what got kept and what was important enough to write down and keep, um, were religious people or, like, monks.
[00:14:09] And so I do think that Christ was probably an influential person at some point. Um, but I think that As it, the stories were repeated and then written down and then copied down, a lot was lost, and a lot of people put on their own agendas into- Mm-hmm ... what he said, and that that's kind of just human nature.
[00:14:35] Um, so I don't believe that he was a god or the son of a god. But I do believe that he was an influential person who, uh, probably taught some morality things, and around that there were these myths created. Mm-hmm. Um, so I kind of view, like, biblical stories as a whole the same that, like, people view, like, Greek mythology.
[00:15:03] Like, it's a mythology and it says more about the people who believe it than actual historical record. I think it's really interesting because usually most people really love the teachings of Jesus Christ, whether or not they- Mm-hmm ... they believe that he was the Son of God, right? Yeah. Because he taught some really, really beautiful things.
[00:15:22] Mm-hmm. It's interesting how people pick and choose the different things that they think were the most important things that he said or that we have recorded that he said, how they use those, those things s- a lot of times to justify bad behavior. Yeah. Right? And, and so that's always interesting to me.
[00:15:41] But kind of to your point, like, like that's kind of how I view scripture anymore. Like, God never wrote anything with his hand, right? Yeah. Like, even, even if you believe that Jesus Christ was God on Earth, he actually never wrote anything down, right? Mm-hmm. People were just writing the things that, that he said.
[00:16:01] So right there, it's going through at least one human mind that's gonna have some interpretation of it. Mm-hmm. And then with the Bible, we have, like you said, what was included and what was excluded in, in all of these things. Like, how all of these things were put together, all of these different books and different stories were all put together in- Mm-hmm
[00:16:25] into the Bible and stuff. And then, um- You know, and it's not that-- Like, it doesn't even make very much sense to me to say, "Okay, is the Bible true?" Mm-hmm. Because, like, what does that even mean? Does it mean that it's, like, accurate to what the people wrote? Did they tell an accurate story? Do you know what I mean?
[00:16:48] Mm-hmm. Like, there's just so many layers to what it means- Yeah ... for it to be true. And so- Even, like, the differences between, like, the Torah and the Old Testament, it's cra- like, it, it proves that there's so much interpretation that goes into it. Right. Right. Even if we assume that the records that we have are correct to the people that wrote them after all of these translations, like, people interpret, and people are wrong, and people sometimes just lie, I think.
[00:17:19] Or people make things up to embellish, um, to make a point and that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. We tell stories in different ways to make the point we're gonna make. Mm-hmm. And so, like, I, I guess what I'm saying, like, the idea of is it true is not necessarily that useful. Just, yeah. Does that make sense the way that I'm saying it?
[00:17:41] Yeah. I think that line of thinking does get you down, like, dangerous roads. Like, we do have to have ways to tell if things are true or not. Sure. But I think that when we're talking about something that was written so long ago, like, we do have ways to prove that, like, this literally didn't happen for, for things like the entire flooding of the world, right?
[00:18:03] Like- Yeah ... you know, those things we can prove are not. But I see what you mean by, like, when it's that far long ago, it doesn't really matter if it really happened or not. It's what does that mean to you? Yeah. If I read this story in the scriptures, how do I use that to, to do good things in the world, right?
[00:18:23] To- Mm-hmm ... organize my life, to make the world a better place. Like, that- Mm ... to me is what really, really matters about these kinds of things. There's an LDS Bible scholar who's really fascinating to listen to. His name is Dan McClellan, but his whole approach is called data... Well, he just says data over dogma, right?
[00:18:45] Like- Mm. Like, this is what the data support. But one of the, one of the ideas that I... This is the quote that I was looking for, and I could not find it. But he said something along the lines of, like, you're never gonna be able to prove that miracles are true- Mm-hmm ... because there's always a more likely explanation.
[00:19:05] Yes. Even if that explanation is just that the person who reported the miracle was just lying. They don't have falsification. It's really hard to prove something doesn't exist or didn't happen. Mm-hmm. Right? And so anytime something like that comes up, you have to just admit that you're taking that on faith.
[00:19:25] Mm-hmm. To me, right? You have to just admit- Yeah ... okay, I'm believing this because I want to believe it. It's not the most likely thing to happen, but I'm believing it because, because I choose to believe it And I think that that's a really interesting approach to religion, and really useful approach to religion, because then you can ask questions like, "Okay, why am I choosing to believe this?"
[00:19:48] Mm-hmm. "Why do I want to believe this?" No, I like that, and I like that we're having this conversation because I was reading a book called Separation of Church and Hate, and it went over a lot of, like- Mm ... Christ teachings and what he meant versus, like, how it's taken now. It was political, but- Mm ... I- it was, it quoted the Bible, and that was probably the most of the Bible that I've read outside of doing this podcast- Mm
[00:20:10] in a long time. And I was like, I do agree with a lot of these teachings, and I do choose to believe that someone somewhere thought that this was important enough to write down and say, "Hey, this is a moral law that we should all agree on. Like, as a society, we should agree, like, that we should love our neighbor- Mm
[00:20:27] or things like that. Or he who is without sin should cast the first stone. Like, things like that are very good, like, just morals to live by. Yeah. So I see what you're saying. And, and with miracles, I don't believe in them, but I can see, like, it's important to say I'm choosing to and here's why. Right. And so specifically with Christ, like, I do choose to believe that Christ was the Son of God.
[00:20:50] Mm. Because I really love the idea that if there is a God, that that God cared about us so much that they didn't just send us off into the world and be like, "Okay, good luck. You know, have fun." Yeah. But that they came to experience what we're experiencing so that he could understand and know how to help us through those things.
[00:21:12] Mm. Like, that to me is a really beautiful idea. I don't know for sure that it's true. Like, there could literally be nothing after we live through this world, and we won't know till we get there. I just... And so for me to say, like, I know that this is true doesn't make sense to me anymore. But, but I love believing that there is a higher power in the universe that loves me and cares about me so much that they were willing to suffer with me in my suffering.
[00:21:44] Yeah. I do like that. And I love the idea that we will continue to exist after this life, right? Like I- Mm-hmm ... I hope that that's true. Mm-hmm. I have no idea for sure. Mm-hmm. I don't know if I will, you know, see my grandma again after I die. Mm-hmm. I hope that I will, though. Yeah. And I love believing that I will.
[00:22:10] I love believing that she still exists somewhere as an individual who cares about me. And so that's- Yeah ... I don't know, that's just kind of my musing about Easter. And like, in general, that's kind of how I've been trying to approach religion in my life, is just like, okay, why do I believe this? What do I think about it?
[00:22:29] What are the consequences of believing in this? Mm-hmm. And how does it encourage me to, to live my life? Mm-hmm. And just kind of evaluating things that way. Yeah, I like that. Um, I think that I look, again, like I look at it like any, like, myth, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. And I do like to see, like, what does this teach us about ourselves, and what it, what does the fact that so many people have believed this for so long mean?
[00:22:55] Yeah. And I do like the idea, like you said, that we believe that if there is a creator who created us, that they care deeply about us. And we also believe, generally, not always in practice, but generally, Christians believe that every soul is important to God, and that every person is individually important- Yeah
[00:23:18] and loved and, and has intrinsic value as a soul and as a person. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that that's, like evaluating that, it like, that creates good things in the world, right? Like- Yeah ... it leads us to treat each other better, at least theoretically. It, it leads us to think that we should treat each other with respect.
[00:23:40] Yeah. Yeah, and I would much rather live in a society where we all believe that each individual is worthy and important and valuable just because of themselves as an individual, like not because of any outside thing, um- I will say though, very tough in practice. Very, um-- I don't believe that every Christian practices that.
[00:24:06] No, and to be honest, like, I don't practice it as well as I could, right? Like, I don't value every human being as much as I value myself. And, like, it's something that's really, really hard to do- Mm-hmm ... but it's a good thing to strive towards, right? Yeah. To having concern for each other. So... Yeah. I have questions about Easter.
[00:24:28] So like I said, I noticed that there has been a difference in how the church is, like, advertising, I guess, Easter. That's not the best word. Mm-hmm. They're like-- When members are all reposting the same thing, I'm like, well, this is- Right. Yeah. The church is definitely putting out- Content. Content. Yeah. We'll say that.
[00:24:47] So can you tell me, like, on the inside, like, what has been the messaging? What has it looked like? Because it is different than when I was growing up. Yeah. Um, it's just, it's just focusing more on the life and death of Jesus Christ. 'Cause I know when, when I was in the church, like, they don't celebrate Ash Wednesday or Good Friday or Palm Sunday.
[00:25:10] Was-- Were those holidays observed actively, or was it just the posts on social media? But as far as like, like putting ashes on your forehead and that kind of thing, they did not do that. I did not see that. If I start seeing- No ... Mormon girls with their crosses on their forehead, I'm gonna kind of lose it.
[00:25:30] Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm like, that is appropriation. That is. That's, that's, that's a different thing. I have Catholic friends. That is not the same thing. No. They did put out some social media stuff. Mm-hmm. But no, they've largely kind of just encouraged the different local congregations to do their own thing, but encouraged them to, to put more emphasis on it.
[00:25:54] So like Palm Sunday this year, because Easter did fall on general conference weekend. Mm-hmm. Which it does about half the time. I don't know exactly how that works, but, um, about half the time Easter comes on conference weekend. And so- In case anyone doesn't know what general conference is, it is every six months the church has a special session that's Saturday and Sunday, and everybody stays home, and they watch the special session that's broadcast.
[00:26:24] Um, it's done in Salt Lake City, and all of the, like, church presidency basically speaks. Yeah, the general leadership. So it's the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the First Presidency, the general Relief Society presidency, and Primary presidency, and they usually get a couple women in there. I did see that. I did.
[00:26:43] I do watch some reviews of general conference that, like- Yeah ... ex-Mormons put out or, like, people that are, like, physically in, mentally out, like, things like that. But I did see they were like, "And we got our second talk, and it was a woman." Yeah. So because general conference fell on Easter, we did do the Sunday before, which is Palm Sunday, they did a, like, an Easter program.
[00:27:10] Mm-hmm. And we did... I mean, they just basically talked about Easter, but we did, like, a lot of songs around the Savior and stuff, and- Mm ... I have to say, that is one of my very favorite things about church is the music. Like, I do, I do love gospel music. Yeah. I do miss that. Well, it's not gospel music, but music about the gospel.
[00:27:33] Yeah, that's true. I love gospel music too, but not the- Yeah ... not the ones being played on in Elders Quorum. No. No, they, they put out a bunch of new hymns, and they, they have some gospel ones in there. New hymns? Yeah. I didn't hear these. Have they not told you about this? No, I didn't know they dropped new hymns.
[00:27:53] They're doing, they're doing a new hymnbook. Cool. But it hasn't... But they've been s- saying that they were gonna do it since before COVID, and so it's just kind of like, "Okay, what's going on?" So a couple years ago they started just releasing... They, like, release, like, 10 at a time of these new ones that are gonna go in.
[00:28:11] And it's fun because they have some of the ones that have been very Christian hymns that we haven't had in our hymnbook. Like, um, my favorite is It Is Well With My Soul. Mm. That's a good one. I like that one, yeah. Yeah, and so that one is in our hymnbook now, and then, um, oh, Amazing Grace, 'cause that's never been in our hymnbook.
[00:28:32] But they have a couple of different ones that have kind of a gospel vibe to them. Ah. They put in- That's so fun ... yeah, they put in This Little Light of Mine. So the primary did this little- They did? Yeah, they did, which does kind of feel like appropriation a little bit, but also I love it, so I'm not gonna...
[00:28:48] No, it's such a cute one. There's one called I'm Gonna Live So God Can Use Me, and it's, it's a very, it's a very gospel, gospel hymn. That's cute. But yeah, I- I didn't know that. I'm so excited about these new hymns. You can go online and listen to them if you want. The church did a new job. I'm so excited. Um- There's, there's another one that I really love called My Shepherd Will Provide My Needs.
[00:29:15] Mm. And the last line of it is, um, "No more a stranger or a guest, but like a child at home." Hm. And I just love that line, like, because that's how I wanna feel- Yeah ... in church, right? Is to feel like we belong together, we- Mm-hmm ... we're cared for here- Yeah ... and we're loved here. I don't know why that made me weepy.
[00:29:39] Well, and it's interesting 'cause the first hymnbook was created that, like, basically used, like, general Christian hymns. Like, we have a lot of overlap with other beliefs- Yeah ... and then we'll have some specific Mormon ones that talk about, like, the First Vision or If You Could Hi- High to Kolob, which is- Yeah
[00:29:59] you know. Um, so I can't believe that it took them so long to update it, but... Well, they, I, I don't know, 'cause when I was a kid, we had a brown hymnal that was smaller- Mm-hmm ... than the green one. It was in, I think I was in high school when they came out with the green one that you, that you grew up with. But that's what I'm saying.
[00:30:17] That's like- Yeah ... 30 years. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting. But yeah, it's supposed to come out, I think, 2027 with all of the songs. But- I, like, I'm really interested to see how they're gonna do it because they're putting all of the primary songs in it too. Oh. Like, there's just gonna be one songbook. Sorry, this is probably, like, not very- No, I'm so interested
[00:30:44] seminary inspired. It's okay. I'm so interested. Um, but they're putting them all... So I don't know if it's just gonna be, like, a ginormous hymnal or if they're gonna put it in volumes or, I'm very interested to see how this is all gonna go down. Yeah. Is it gonna fit in the back of the pew? Yeah. Gonna bulk it out.
[00:31:05] Yeah. I was gonna ask, what's your favorite Easter hymn? My favorite Easter hymn?
[00:31:14] That's, I, I love For the Beauty of the Earth, which is not really an Easter hymn, but it's a spring hymn. See, mine's a spring one too, and I thought we were gonna say the same one. What one? But I do love For the Beauty of the Earth. Um, I love, what is it? C- the Consider the Lilies of the Field. Oh, I do love that one too.
[00:31:35] The MoTab version goes hard. Oh, it's not in the hymn book. It's not in the hymn book? No. I don't know if they'll put it in that one, in, but no. I really like it. Okay. Hymn-wise, I'd have to look. It's not fresh in my mind. Yeah, see, that's the thing is that the one that always comes to mind is, um, He Is Risen.
[00:31:55] He is risen, he- Yeah, that's a little, that's a little too jolly for me. It's very aggressive. It's very aggressive, and then the other part of it is that that's, like, anytime anybody sleeps late at Gramp's house, that when you get up- Yes, yes ... then he sings that. And so that's like my main I actually, I, I wanna look up some of the Easter hymns now because they have, they ha- they came out with some good new ones.
[00:32:24] Uh-huh. So then this conversation's been kind of all over the place, but kinda fun. We'll see. I've learned all about the new hymns, and I'm happy. Yeah. I'm satisfied with the conversation. Well, so this book that I'm gonna send you, so the author's name is Brittany Hartley, and she was raised LDS, and then she deconstructed her religion.
[00:32:45] But she talks about, like, scientifically, all of the things that religion does for our brain- Mm-hmm ... that, um, that we lose when we, uh, when we leave religion. And you've talked about this somewhat before, where we lose these, these major holidays. We m- well, we lose our liturgical calendar, right? Because- Mm-hmm
[00:33:09] a lot of our traditions are based around religion. And we lose, um, like our communities is a big one, and we lose- Mm-hmm ... like some of these, um... Like, the way that music, like, feeds our soul, and then we- Mm-hmm ... don't have that outside, you know? Or unless we, unless we find it, unless we create it for ourselves.
[00:33:36] Yeah. And so that's this, that's what her book is all about, is, like, intentionally creating all of these things in your life. Yeah. No, that's super interesting 'cause the music thing, it, it has helped me a lot to make my little joke about feeling the Holy Ghost. Like- Mm-hmm ... you know, like if there's a good movie or, like, a good, like, part in a song or something that's, like, completely not religious, I'll be like, "I got chills.
[00:34:02] That's the Holy Ghost." Like- ... you know. But it is helpful because it does, like, feed my soul in the same way. Like, there's definitely, like, music, especially live music I enjoy, and, like, it's filling my soul that same way. Yeah. And, and so it's, it's fun to acknowledge that and be like, "Ugh, I'm feeling, I'm feeling human right now.
[00:34:22] Like, I'm feeling- Yeah ... attached to my humanity right now." Right. Like, I was at, famously, I was at the, um, PWHL game. They played at MSG, and they sold out the stadium, and it's the most attendees to a women's hockey game ever. Mm-hmm. And it was just, like, so inspiring to be there. The energy was great, and, like, I definitely was like, "Ugh, I'm feeling the Holy Ghost."
[00:34:49] Like- Yeah. So I do, I do see the point of, like, intentionally finding those places, and I do miss, like, having live music every single week, like, coming together with people and singing and having, like, those inspiring moments. Well, and back to something I said earlier I do think that we're all talking about the same thing- Mm-hmm
[00:35:12] using different words. Yeah. But yeah, that experience of feeling, of feeling connected to something bigger- Mm-hmm ... and feeling that, like, enlarge your soul. Like, whether we call it the Holy Ghost or whatever else you call it, you know, I think we're talking about the same experience, and I- Yeah ... I don't know.
[00:35:32] Like, I just wish we could talk about things like that more so we could not get so dogmatic about it. Like- Yeah ... like, this is what you are feeling, and this is why you are feeling it, and kind of- Yeah ... rather than just, like, really experiencing it for yourself and being like, "Oh, this is beautiful." And I think that's why I have a lot of empathy for how religion has, like, grown and maintained power, is because, like, when you talk to another human, and you're describing this is the reason that happens, it's very nice to have an answer.
[00:36:07] Yeah. Yeah. This was the other thing that I wanted to talk about is because I feel like we're in a process because all of my kids have left the church, right? And so we don't celebrate holidays the same way that we used to. Mm-hmm. But I do think that it's important for us to continue to have traditions that connect us- Mm-hmm
[00:36:28] and to have opportunities to celebrate important things. Mm-hmm. You know, whether that be spring or Easter or the, you know, the renewing of life- Mm-hmm ... or, or the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I think. Mm-hmm. But, but I think that we have to be more intentional about it when- Yeah ... when it's not handed us, handed to us, like we're gonna all practice it in this religious way.
[00:36:56] Yeah. Because if I think of every, like, holiday that we do practice, it's based off of a national holiday or a Christian holiday. Like, we have Easter and Christmas, right, are the big ones, and then Thanksgiving and 4th of July are, like, another two big ones that we come home for or, like, get together to celebrate, and those are both around, like, again, a myth about our country and about, like, who we are, and, um, I don't know.
[00:37:26] I, I... That is really interesting to talk about. I don't necessarily want to replace any of them, but I do think that the way that I celebrate them and intentionally celebrate them- Yeah ... is different. Well, and I think just like in our family, like coming together to celebrate things that we need to be more, more intentional about it and just something that I'm kind of thinking about that I would like to do better moving forward.
[00:37:53] Well, I gotta let you go, but- All right. Thank you for coming ... this was a fun conversation even if it was, if it was rambly and it was... Yeah. Thanks for getting on. I love you. I love you too. Bye-bye. Bye.
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