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[00:00:05] Hi, I'm Kari. And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee & Coco, a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide. So- Awesome ... what do you want to bear your testimony about today? One Direction.
[00:00:25] Yeah? Yeah. I know that we're talking today about some of my past loves, and I did love One Direction for a really long time. Like, I was obsessed with them, and I just met a new friend, and we were talking, and she's like, "Wait, were you a Directioner?" And I was like, "I was a Directioner." And I just love that, like, all these years later...
[00:00:46] I'm sure it's the same for, like, people that were, like, fans of the Backstreet Boys, things like that. But it's, it's just so fun that all these years later we're, we're like, "Oh yeah, I also watched the Adventures of One Direction, the YouTube video, and I also am watching, you know, Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson compilations and stuff like that."
[00:01:07] So it's just fun. I love those connection points. That is fun. I think I'm going to bear my testimony about community theater because, um, 'cause our community theater is doing Into the Woods right now, and I just finished building the set for it, which was so much work, so much work. And I did have a lot of help painting and stuff like that, so I appreciate that, but it was still so much work.
[00:01:35] Uh, and your little sister is in... is playing Rapunzel in it, and that's kinda fun too. But there's been a lot of drama and a lot of, you know, kind of ups and downs about the whole thing, and I think it's so interesting Because from my point of view, that's the work of being human, right? Is, is- Yeah ... learning to work with other humans and care about and accomplish something good in concert with people that you don't always like and you don't always agree with, and building relationships th- that way.
[00:02:08] And so I think that community theater is, is really a cool thing to be a part of. And I need a break from it for a while because we've been doing a lot lately. But, um, it's been a good experience I think in a lot of ways for our family too. You always participated- Mm-hmm ... in community theater when, when you lived here.
[00:02:28] Yeah. And I think, I think it can be really a good thing for both the participants and the community, so. Yeah. And I like that too. I think that's something that I've realized as I've gotten older and within finding my own communities is that, I don't know, I think when I was younger everyone was like, "Ugh, I hate drama," and, "We need to, you know, not have so much drama," and blah, blah, blah.
[00:02:51] But, like, a perfect community is not one without drama, it is one where we accept drama as human nature and we also accept that we're gonna get past the dramas and we're gonna resolve these issues. Yeah. Every good community I have been a part of has had people get offended, or people feel like they're working too much, or people feel like things are unfair, or these are just our human things that we pick up.
[00:03:19] Uh-huh. And it doesn't make the community not worth having. Yeah. The second part of our human nature is that we develop past the drama, and we resolve these feelings, or we let the feelings go, or we move on and decide, "You know what? I was offended. Maybe I'm mad at this person for a year," and then we get over it, you know?
[00:03:41] Yeah. Or maybe that person's not my best friend anymore, but we're both in this community, and- Right ... I'm gonna accept our differences. Yeah. And I just think that that's really, really good for us as human beings. Yeah. Because that's how we grow. That's how we learn to love people or how we learn to love better- Mm-hmm
[00:04:02] is by loving people that are hard to love sometimes. And I think when I accept that I still really enjoy the company of and love people that do things that I'm not the biggest fan of or do things- Mm-hmm ... that offend me or things like that, it makes it easier for me to love myself. Yes. 'Cause I'm not always my biggest fan.
[00:04:23] Mm-hmm. And I'm stuck with myself, you know? Yeah. That is so real, isn't it? Yeah. Recognizing that, that you can not be perfect and still be lovable. Yeah. That was actually my shower thought of the day because I had a really good night last night with some girlfriends, and I was like, "Wow, every- everywhere I've been, I've been able to find a good group of people that I really like."
[00:04:46] And I, I had a moment where I was like, "That's because you're likable." Like, I really- Yeah ... am harsh on myself and all of the reasons someone might not want to be my friend or where I'm failing as a friend or things like that, but- Yeah, I, I do feel like I can be loving and I can love myself and I am worthy of community and I don't know.
[00:05:06] I love that. It's, it's good to have those moments. I'm so glad. Yeah, that makes me happy. And it's like, ugh, you are the common denominator here. Like give yourself some credit. Give yourself some credit. And that, yeah, it's so hard to do, so I'm glad that you're learning that, 'cause I still struggle with that.
[00:05:24] Well, I don't think there's an end point. I think that there's like- Yeah. Ups and downs ... but I also, I also... I know where this is going on, but I saw a TikTok that was like my insecurities when I was 13, and it was like, "Ugh, I said that word really weird," or, "I look really weird in these jeans," or things like that.
[00:05:40] And then my insecurities at 30, and it's like, "Am I showing up as the best friend I can be to this friend?" Or like- ... "Did I forget to tell them thank you?" Right. Or things like that. And I'm like, "Okay, do you know what? I'd much rather be in this, like self-actualized place." Even though it's still the same place.
[00:05:59] So like, not- At least I'm worried about things that matter. Yes. Yes, 100%. And it'll always be ongoing, but I hope that the things that I'm self-aware of are, am I being kind to others, and not- Yeah ... did I say that thing weird? Yeah. I still sometimes worry that I say some things weird. I still do- Yeah, yeah ... say things weird, let's be honest.
[00:06:23] Yeah. And now we're recording ourselves, so that's just making it worse. Okay. So today I wanted to talk about, like the intersection of the, the queer community with the church, and- Mm-hmm ... like particular, like where it's come up pretty obviously with some, some fairly famous LDS people that have come out as, as gay.
[00:06:45] And the one that came up this week is, is David Archuleta, 'cause his, his memoir just came out. And by the time this comes out it will have been a minute. But, but about his coming out, coming to, to terms with- Yeah ... his sexuality, and then, um- And then ultimately leaving the church over it. Yeah. And- And I think just starting out- Uh-huh
[00:07:08] we should put a disclaimer that we are two women in heteronormative relationships- Right ... who don't experience gender queerness talking about this. We are not the experts on this. I think that the point of this is just to discuss what we've seen, what that looks like, and how it's a- affected the people in our lives.
[00:07:31] Yes, and, and how it's affected our lives, right? Yeah. Because particularly how my mind has changed so much over the years. Like, I don't think that you so much had a real conversion experience or anything like that because as you were growing up, you, you had friends that were queer, and- Mm-hmm ... that was, and they just seemed very normal to you.
[00:07:54] I think that because we lived in a very conservative town, I caught like the tail end of, like, having weird feelings around it. I think- Mm ... that, like, I definitely felt pressured to, like, when my friends came out, like I wanted to support them and wanted to feel like that was okay, and then I felt this every member a missionary pressure to be like- Mm
[00:08:17] you don't have to be or, or things like that. Or I remember there was like a lot of weirdness of a queer woman like two or three grades ahead of me. Actually, I think she may have graduated high school when I was in eighth grade. Um, but she was transitioning to a woman, and I remember, like, she was on the cheer team for a little bit, and then they wouldn't let her wear like a regular cheer uniform.
[00:08:39] They wanted her to wear the men's cheer uniform, and I remember she was well-known- Yeah ... in the community for being the weird one. Yeah. Interesting. I hadn't thought about that in a long time, but I do remember her. Um- Mm-hmm. Very brave of her. I know. I wonder what she's doing now. Yeah. I don't know, 'cause I didn't know her personally, and that's crazy.
[00:08:59] I didn't know her or her family, but I absolutely could spot her- Uh-huh ... like out in town. Like sh- because it was such a big deal to everyone. Yeah. But yeah, so brave. I hope, I hope she's thriving now. I do too. Oh my gosh, I do too. Yeah. So I mean, because I never knew anybody growing up. Well, that's not true.
[00:09:23] No. Because- You had a friend, right? I had a dear friend in high school, uh, who just was one of my very, very best friends. He wasn't out of the closet. He didn't talk about being gay. He came out to me a couple of years past high school. Hmm. But clearly there was something different about him, right? He was, he was a little bit effeminate.
[00:09:48] He was a little bit... Is that a bad word, effeminate? No. Okay. And he was, he was just different. He was very flamboyant, and, and it just- Yeah ... and so much fun. He was just such a dear friend. And we had such a good time together always, and I really loved being around him, and he... But he wasn't out of the closet or didn't talk about being attracted to men.
[00:10:10] So I was aware of like this is a thing, but- Mm ... um, but it also was very like the entire queer community was pretty closeted, right? It was just not like not a thing that people talked about. Well, you graduated in 1990, right? '91. Yeah. '91, sorry. Didn't mean to age you there. Um- Rude. That's like well into like LGBTQ rights throughout America.
[00:10:37] Like here in New York- Right ... I think that that was alive and well. Um- Sure, and- And it's also beginning of, or middle of the AIDS pandemic. I don't know my queer history well enough. Um, it was... AIDS pandemic was kind of coming down. Mm. The AIDS pandemic was more in the mid to late '80s. So- But I'm sure it was still going on, so we'd been through that kind of thing.
[00:11:01] Mm-hmm. Anyways So he was just a dear friend of mine, and he came out to me a couple years past. And I remember, like... Well, what I remember at the time was feeling guilty that I hadn't shared the church with him when we were in high school, right? That I hadn't been a better missionary, and then maybe he wouldn't have been gay.
[00:11:21] And, like, looking back now, that's really a ridiculous assumption or whatever. But so watching him on social media, because w- when did we get Facebook? We got it around, like, 2008. So there were a good 10 years in, in there that I didn't know where he was or what he was doing or anything like that. And he moved to San Francisco, which, you know, is kind of iconic for the age or whatever, right?
[00:11:49] Because that was where all of the gay people were, was in San Francisco. And, um, so, you know, like 10 years e- before we got in touch ever again, and then when Facebook came out, I can't remember exactly when, I, we reconnected on that. And still, we were living very, very different lives, right? Because he was living- Mm-hmm
[00:12:10] as a gay man in, in San Francisco, and I was living here in Elko raising my very Mormon family. But still- Yeah ... kind of connected and I, you know, "I hope everything is well for you, I hope things are going good," and, and it's just been interesting to watch him over the years. So I guess that he, he definitely is part of my experience with queer people.
[00:12:33] But anyways, like I've known, I've known different queer people throughout my life, and that's always been kind of one of those things that I was just like, "How does this, how does this work," right? Like, how does this work with the church? And always been very confused by it, but- Mm-hmm ... not confused to the point that it dramatically affected my life personally, right?
[00:12:54] Which is- Well, and also, like you said, like you were married to a man. Mm-hmm. None of your kids were, like, getting to the point where were having sexuality of any kind. I feel like you didn't really have to address it yet. Right. You could look at other people address it and be like, "Okay, that's happening over there, and I don't really- Mm-hmm
[00:13:13] understand it." But until you have to make a choice for yourself about, "How am I gonna parent my child through this?" Or, "How am I gonna deal with my own feelings on this?" Like you... It's, it's like anything, like we've said about, like, leaving the church. Like, you don't question the things that are already in line with your life already or- Yeah, that are just working for you
[00:13:32] aren't up against your life. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, again, like very privileged position, right? Mm-hmm. I don't have to deal with this, and so I'm not dealing with this. Yeah. And l- that's one of the ways that I, that I can see privilege in my life or, or one of the ways that I first started to see privilege in my life was like, "Oh, this is really painful for some people, but not for me, because it's- Mm-hmm
[00:13:57] it's not my issue," right? Yeah. I just think that's important because, 'cause people get really defensive about the word privilege, and that's what it is, right? It's just not a problem that I have to deal with. Yeah. Like, I don't have that additional friction. Yeah. It's not that I don't have problems, but I don't have that problem, and so I don't- Yeah
[00:14:19] have to exert effort to resolve that or anything. Yeah, and I also think there's something to be said about it's a lot easier to make your opinions about the queer community when you're not the one with family members who are queer- Oh, yeah ... or you aren't the one that are having that feeling. I think that a lot of people are like, "Nope, this is how it should be."
[00:14:42] Mm-hmm. And expect other people to follow that even though they have different feelings than them. Yes. And then I think from, like, o- kind of the position you and I took when I was in the church and when you, you know, before, was more, "Well, however they feel about it, they're gonna deal with it that way."
[00:14:58] Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like, I'm gonna handle my relationship with God my way, and, you know- Yeah ... I'm sure that's hard for them, but they're gonna handle it on their end. So one of the first ways that I really... Because I started to be concerned that one of my children was queer, right? And, and that brought up a lot of panic in me, because, because I hadn't dealt with it at all, and, um, and had just kind of let it be somebody else's problem for so long.
[00:15:25] And yeah, it was, it was a very panicky situation for me. So I started really studying about it, and I found a video that was done by John Dehlin, and he wasn't very well known at that time. I don't know if he's- He- I... He's probably not... I would say that the vast majority of the church is not very aware of who John Dehlin is either.
[00:15:46] Really? Yeah. I mean, everybody that's left the church knows who he is. Maybe not e- I feel like when I've heard, not every Mormon, but a lot of, like, true believing Mormons, they treat it the same as, like, anti-Mormon literature. Yeah. Like, it's a curse word. Right. Right, and so if I had known, if, if it had been the situation that it is now, I probably would've not looked at it.
[00:16:09] Not listened. Not listened to it. Yeah. But where it was, he hadn't been excommunicated yet. I didn't know anything about him when I found this video. Yeah. Except that he was Mormon, right? Except that he was Mormon, yeah. Yeah. And so anyways, he put out this video, and it was... I tried to find it before I got on here to show it to you, but it was so beautiful.
[00:16:30] It was him and several other LDS people- Mm-hmm ... and they were just talking to the gay community and just saying, "We love you. Like, we don't understand- Mm-hmm ... what's going on yet, but we love you so much." Mm-hmm. "And we think you're beautiful people. We see the good in you," all of this stuff, and it was really just...
[00:16:52] It was affirming to me, because it was like, "Okay. It's okay for me to love them." Mm-hmm. "It's okay for me to see the good in these people." Mm-hmm. And that doesn't sound like it should be a- revelatory thing Controversial . Yeah. It, like, from where I'm at now, it's like- Yeah ... okay, that's, that's silly. You're like, "Ah."
[00:17:11] But at the time, it kind of was. It kind of was to me, because it was just like I knew that it was a, a sin, right? And I knew that it was contrary to the will of God and all of that kind of stuff from the church- Mm-hmm ... church's point of view. But I didn't know how to deal with that, right? And on all of this time, I had kind of...
[00:17:30] We hadn't been close, this friend from high school and I. Mm-hmm. But we hadn't been close, but we had kept in touch, and I'd always- Mm ... kind of felt like, "Ooh, is that okay?" But I loved him, right? He was my good, good friend. Yeah. And I was interested in what was happening in his, in his life, and I had always felt like, "Ooh, maybe that's not what I should be doing there," right?
[00:17:51] Yeah. So interesting. So I, I, so I saw this video, and that just kind of set me on this path of, you know what? There is something going on here. Because, because I learned a lot about other people who were gay in the church and how they dealt with it, and- Mm-hmm ... there was also a group called the Mama Dragons.
[00:18:11] It was an LDS-based group, but it was mothers- Mm-hmm ... of, of queer children fighting for a place for them in the church, and fighting for- Mm-hmm ... some openness around it and, and just realizing, like, this is a problem. It's not that they're sinning. It's not that they're bad people. It's not that they're trying to rebel against God or anything like that.
[00:18:32] It's that this is, this is a deep part of them that they- Mm-hmm ... they c- they can't reconcile. Mm-hmm. Right? That they can't just be the way that, that the church says that they should be. Well, and I think that it really, like, conflicts with old-fashioned views that there's some sort of perversion in it. Yeah.
[00:18:52] And it's like, okay, how are you gonna tell me my nine-year-old is just feeling this way 'cause he's perverse, you know? Right. Right. Well, and then there was one particular story that was just really interesting about a mom in California, and they had the whole Prop 8 thing in California, which- Mm-hmm ... um, Prop 8, they were trying to legalize gay marriage, and the church came out hard on that.
[00:19:17] Mm. They- I remember that ... they had people canvassing neighborhoods with literature. They had people protesting. People from the church. This was an assignment from the church that you were to, to come out and, and campaign against this. Crazy that they don't pay taxes. Sorry. So this mom, while, while that was going on, and their family was all involved in it, and then, and then her son came out during this time, and she was like, "I've been fighting against this, and this is- Mm-hmm
[00:19:52] my child. This is my child," right? Mm-hmm. And he was very young. But, you know, the stories that I read d- just became very clear that what happened was kids would start to, to feel this way in the church, and their first reaction always is, like, double down. "I'm gonna go to church harder. I'm gonna go... I'm going to be the perfect Mormon and God will change me."
[00:20:19] Well, and I, I think what we're both talking about is a, I guess, eternal truth that I have found, is that all of these very old-fashioned arguments around queer people dissolve the minute that you have someone close to you that you love that is queer. That you know and love, that you know is, a, such a good person.
[00:20:42] Mm-hmm. And is trying to- And like- ... to do right ... yeah, 'cause I've seen people who are very anti-trans until someone they love is trans. Mm-hmm. And then you have to... And, and I do think that it causes a lot of harm. Like, I do think in the story that you told, like, you have to sit there and be like, "Wow, I have been hating people that are like this person that I love."
[00:21:03] Yeah. "And I have been doing damaging things." Um- I've been- But yeah, like I- ... saying things that, that are hurting this person with- And to me, if there was any eternal truth, if there was any omniscient truth to- Mm-hmm ... the anti-queer beliefs- Mm-hmm ... they would have more hold. They would be able to hold up better than the minute I know someone that I love that is queer, these truths are not holding up for me.
[00:21:30] These- Yeah ... these things, these long-held beliefs or, or old beliefs about it being a choice or being a, it being a perversion or things like that are starting to dwindle. Yeah. Yeah. It really has been interesting to me to, to see how my mind and my heart have changed about it because, because this is the thing, is that there are queer people who still really want to be part of the church, who still really- Mm-hmm
[00:21:58] fight to be part of the church. Mm-hmm. Why, like, why do they do that? Why is that so important to them still? Mm-hmm. So Charlie, Charlie Bird was, uh, he was the mascot at BYU, and he won some major competitions and stuff. You can watch all these really cute videos of Cosmo the Cougar- Mm-hmm ... doing all these great dances with the cheerleaders, and very athletic, just really cute personality-wise.
[00:22:27] Mm-hmm. And, um, and then he, or came out as gay, and he wrote a book, and I think he's done a lot towards, um, towards changing minds and changing people's hearts towards the gay community. But he is very, very adamant about staying a part of the church, and he actually- Mm-hmm ... um, he did a podcast for a while, and then he, he met a, a man, and they just fell crazy head over heels in love and got married.
[00:22:55] Mm-hmm. And he, and Charlie stayed a m- a member of the church right up to the time that he got married. And I'm actually not sure if he was excommunicated. I don't think that he has been excommunicated, but he- I was gonna ask ... couldn't be married in the temple. Is that still, like, 'cause I know this, this all happened post me leaving the church, but I know that they came out with that thing around 2016, 2017 that said that, like, if you- I think it was '15 If you are married to someone of the same gender- Mm-hmm
[00:23:32] that that is an excommunicat- Yeah ... excommunicable, um, offense. Yeah. Is that still true? They walked big parts of it back. I'm not sure i- if they still have to be excommunicated, 'cause I don't think that he is. I don't think- Oh ... that he has been excommunicated. But this- that's what this video is about. Okay.
[00:23:54] So I watched it. It's basically a very short video. He's talking about how he moved into a new ward, and how he sat down with his husband and the bishop, and they discussed, like, how to integrate into the ward. And he talks about, like, the, like, he... It's very concise. It's a great video. But three things that the, the bishop did that were helpful to him, and that, that were helpful to integrating, and he talks about how, like, the bishop was like, "Let's both read over the policies to see what is and isn't correct right now, and making sure that we're not following any outdated policies," and then also just how his bishop welcomed him and approached it with a lot of love.
[00:24:36] And the thing that I liked that he said is the bishop was like, "I want to make sure that I know how to make as many of the blessings of the gospel available to you." Mm-hmm. Thought that was really sweet. I will say my ex-Mormon take is that a straight couple moving into a ward wouldn't have to do that, wouldn't have to sit down- Yeah
[00:24:56] and discuss, how do we follow the rules the right way, you know? And I think that it's great that there are people in the church that want to make space for- Yeah ... the queer community. And I do, I am gonna caveat that with saying I think that the space that is made for them isn't blanketed for every member of the q- queer community.
[00:25:19] I think that gay couples are more accepted than, like, transgender people or- Mm-hmm ... or people who are asexual and choose not to get married or things like that. Yeah. I think that the approach and the level of a- acceptance is different. Yeah. Um- Well, and it's different from, from place to place, right? Yeah.
[00:25:39] 'Cause we talk about bishop roulette, and also ward- Yeah ... roulette, but that it just depends on the attitudes of the people. What I really liked about it was that, um, it was a good example of like, okay, what can we do in this situation? If somebody wants to... Because, I mean, I think to your point, like, the easy answer is just leave the church, right?
[00:26:05] Yeah. But there are people who don't want to, who want to still be included- Yeah ... in the church, and they should be allowed. That's valid. That's a valid life decision for them. Mm-hmm. They get to make that choice. And if they are making that choice, what can we do in that situation to make it a better experience for them?
[00:26:24] Yeah. And just, and to serve them and love them as Christ would love them. Yeah. And I think that that was such a great example of that. Uh, yeah. Um, we also for this, you know, like, discussion, we both listened to, um, David Archuleta's interview with John Dehlin. Right. And something that I took from that that kind of applied to this was, like, he was talking about how change in the church kind of happens when the old generation dies off- Mm-hmm
[00:26:51] and when we're not trying to assimilate to previous beliefs or even other, like, major Christian religions believe, um, then, then the change can happen, and I do like seeing that change happen. Like, I do think- Mm-hmm ... that this is how it happens. Mm-hmm. Like you said, like, it's very nice to hear from a gay couple coming into a ward, "Hey, this was helpful to me.
[00:27:13] This is something that, like, if you are a bishop of a ward, you could implement or you could try." Right. And I, and I think people do really well because sometimes you're like, "I want to love you. I don't know how to love you. How is the best way to love you?" And it's the more concrete examples you can give of that, the better, I think.
[00:27:31] Yeah. Yeah. I just really appreciated that. Watching other people's experiences on social media has been a really useful tool for me, right? Yeah. I, I remember coming to you actually not real long ago and saying, "I can kind of understand the gay thing, and I've known gay people and accepted gay people- Mm-hmm
[00:27:52] and loved gay people and, but the trans thing is still uncomfortable to me." And, and that was your suggestion, was follow some trans people on Instagram and, and see. Yeah. I love that you remember that 'cause that was probably four years ago now. I remember- Was it? ... specifically because it was also we were having discussions around JK Rowling and around, like- Right
[00:28:12] the TERF movement and, and that's something that I learned in college, like, one of my communication courses that really stuck out to me. It's one of those things that you're like, that seems obvious, but it took really taking that information in, but it was saying, you know, good communication doesn't happen when you say, "I think that I have the best view of the situation."
[00:28:37] It's when you say- Mm-hmm ... "I think that you have a different view, and I'm gonna listen to your experiences of that view." Yes. Right? I will never have the experience of a gay man. Right. I just never will. Mm-hmm. So all I can do- Or a trans person ... is listen... Yeah. All I can do is listen to them and say, "I believe you that that is what you experience."
[00:28:57] Yeah, and that has been huge. That has been really huge- Mm-hmm ... for me. There were several trans people online on Instagram that I followed, and just really delightful, lovely people, you know? Mm-hmm. And that, that helped me so much to change how I feel- felt about that. And it's interesting, too, because we're kind of warned in the church not to do that.
[00:29:21] Yeah. Yeah. Say more. Well, just recently President Oaks gave a talk, and I really went back and studied it because what came out, the opinion of what a lot of people said on, on social media was President Oaks is telling us not to talk to people who don't believe. And that is, that is a huge narrative that we have, right, is to stay away from things like that.
[00:29:46] So I, I pulled up his talk just because I, I really wanted to hear exactly what he was saying. Yeah. So this is what he said about it. He said, "A way to draw closer to our Savior is to associate with other believers. This includes discussions with trusted associates, local church, church members, and other faithful friends."
[00:30:07] He said, "Remember, to survive spiritually you need the constant influence of the Holy Ghost and an a- an abundance of speculation and false information in podcasts and on social media surrounds us. Some may protest or question the truth of church doctrine without knowing or even understanding the fullness of that doctrine.
[00:30:26] Don't be persuaded by false or inaccurate information. Discuss your concerns with faithful, well-informed friends and always take those concerns to the Lord." And then he told this story. He said, "I want to share this experience of a Y stake president here on this campus," which is BYU campus. "He was approached by a young man in his stake who admired him and asked him to mentor him in his business.
[00:30:49] And after a few weeks, the young man confided, 'I should share with you that I have decided to step away from the church. I no longer believe.' The surprised stake president immediately began to share his profound testimony of the gospel that had brought him so much joy, peace, and inspiration. The young man sat stunned, staring back at the stake president with tears in his eyes.
[00:31:09] He said, 'I have not heard anyone speak like that in months. I have been hanging out with friends who don't believe.' I say to all, all of you, as that Y stake president said to this young man, 'Seek friends and associates who are striving to follow the Lord, friends and associates with whom you can feel the Spirit and with whom you can reinforce your faith.'
[00:31:30] Surround yourself with people who believe." So did you want to react? React. Yeah. Okay. I mean, okay. Yeah. I'm not trying to be snarky. It is very interesting of him to frame leaving the church as a desire to not follow the Lord, right? Because- I think that the church does some things that aren't in line with Jesus Christ's teaching, if that's who they're talking about when they say the Lord.
[00:31:58] And I think that Jesus Christ actually, like, never spoke on being gay. I think actually only modern-day prophets have cared about that, and there's one chapter in the Leviticus that kind of talks about it. So I just, I just find that interesting that, that that's how it's framed. But I also understand that there are people in the church, people that I know that l- and love, like you, that are trying to follow the church and follow the church's teachings, and you are that person that they can confi- confide in.
[00:32:30] You know? Mm-hmm. If people are feeling like, "I need someone who understands my want to stay in the church, but also understands that I am a queer person and I don't want to devalue that." Mm-hmm. That you are the person they could go to. Uh, versus me, I think that I left because I felt like I couldn't be all of the values that I wanted to while I was in the church.
[00:32:55] Yeah. Well, I, I mean, reading over it, for me, I was just kind of looking at it in a way of like, okay, because I haven't left the church and I don't want to leave the church. Yeah. And so, so looking at that, to me, it's been very important to listen to other stories. Mm-hmm. It's been very important to listen to people that I love- Mm-hmm
[00:33:14] and understand what's going on with them, and it's been very important to listen to experiences of, of people that this is not working for, to listen to trans people online and to listen to gay people online, and to listen to their experiences and, and understand better. But I also do still surround myself with people who believe, right?
[00:33:36] I still go to church- Mm-hmm ... and I still talk to mostly people who are, are members of the church. Like, I don't feel like I'm not following that counsel at all. Like- Yeah ... s- so from that vantage point, like, I don't think he's saying, "Don't listen to other people." Like, there wasn't anything in there that said, "Don't listen to friends that are out of the church."
[00:33:59] Mm-hmm. But, but it sounded more to me like he was saying if, if you read the words specifically, there's no place in there that says, "Don't listen to friends and family who have, have left the church." Mm-hmm. He does say that there's a lot of false information on podcasts and online, which is- Mm-hmm ... probably true.
[00:34:18] I, I think it's interesting be- because he's saying false... Because to me, it's just different perspectives, right? I don't think it- Yeah ... I don't think that there's a lot of people that are actually just flat out lying online. About the church. About the church. When it comes to the church, there's not a lot of people flat out lying.
[00:34:36] I do think it's good counsel in general to say, "Hey, there's a lot of misinformation online." Sure. Right. Be careful. That's true. Because, yeah, we are living in a really weird time. But I do think that there's a lot of different perspectives online. Mm-hmm. And I think that characterizing that as just false is not necessarily the best way of characterizing it.
[00:34:59] Mm-hmm. So I just think that that's... Like, we kind of hear what we think we're gonna hear, not only just what we wanna hear, but what we think we're gonna hear. Mm-hmm. So I think it's, it's easy for people to take that and be like, "Oh, he's telling us not to talk to our, our friends that have left the church."
[00:35:15] Mm-hmm. And I, and I don't think that was exactly what I think he was saying. For me, the best course of action has been to listen to both sides of it. Mm-hmm. Right? To stay, to listen to what's going on in the church and what the prophets are saying in the church, and also to listen to what's going on with people that are struggling with harder things, so.
[00:35:36] Yeah. Well, and I think... So this started with David Archuleta, who I was a big fan of- Right ... as a child. Right. Um, like when we went- We went and saw him, remember? That was so fun. I know. We went and saw him. That was my first concert, and you got me those- Yeah ... tickets for Christmas, I remember. But when I, when I heard him speak about coming out and leaving the church, like- Mm-hmm
[00:35:58] because those happened separately, um, he was talking to his mom, and he was talking about how he left, and his mom then left the church and said, "Why would I be someplace where my child is not welcome?" And I think that- Yeah ... what we're kind of saying here is I can understand both perspectives, and it's important to understand both perspectives, is that there are queer people that are fed up and said, "I don't want to fight the fight of- Yeah
[00:36:23] carving a space out for the church. It's not necessary for me to follow my faith." Yeah. Um, "I can do that outside of the church," and they step away, or their parents step away. And there are cases like Charlie Bird, where you stay in the church and you... You know, he has a platform where he can discuss what is helpful to him, and you continue to carve out that space for you and practice in a way that makes you feel comfortable.
[00:36:46] And then there are also cases like our family, where people have left the church because they don't feel like there's space for them. But- Mm-hmm ... I don't feel like you staying in the church is because you're staying with a place where your kids aren't welcome. I think that you are practicing your faith the best that you can.
[00:37:05] Mm-hmm. And also trying to make it a place where- If one person can help carve out a space for people that are like your children, you're going to do that. Yeah. Well, there was one other account that I, that I came across recently that I think is so interesting, and it is a gay person in the church who is saying that his point of view is that it's not helpful to him for people to say that the church might change s- someday, because it's more helpful for him to just support him in the life that he's choosing to live, which is- Mm-hmm
[00:37:40] you know, being in a marriage with a woman. So I just think, I guess the point that I was trying to make is just there's a lot of different ways to do this life, right? Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of different choices to make, and I think our best way of doing it is just not telling everybody else how to live.
[00:38:00] Yeah. Right? Not telling everybody else what they should be doing, right? Mm-hmm. Like, the idea of the marketplace of ideas where- Mm-hmm ... we all d- you know, I'm doing this because this is what I think, and tell me about what you think and tell me about how you choose to live your life. And- Yeah ... I think that, you know, that, that, that's probably the way that we can most freely make our choices, is by, you know, just seeing different ways of, of being and, and choosing intelligently and with our hearts, you know- Mm-hmm
[00:38:35] what we think is the best thing to do. And having faith in each other that, that, you know, you're gonna live the best way that you know how. And- Mm-hmm ... and then on top of that, we also have to give each other a lot of grace because we screw it up a lot along the way, too. So... Yeah. Anyways. Well, I, I think we agree on that. I think that we agree on under- you know, understanding where people are coming from, taking the time to listen- Mm-hmm ... and then just like you said, having faith that they're going to do what they think is best with that. Yeah. And to me, on top of that, there's a faith in God, that God- Mm-hmm
[00:39:17] loves all of their children. Yeah. And that, you know, that, that they care about their moral education and, and the good things that they're doing and, and I just don't believe that our heavenly parents are ever gonna give up on any of us. I just believe that they're just watching us kind of learn things and, and celebrating all of the, all of the good that we do and, um, and probably hurting when we hurt, watching us learn and grow and develop and become better as we go.
[00:39:51] Yeah. I guess if I believed in gods, that would be... That sounds better. All right. Well, we better wrap this up, but thank you for always having these discussions with me. It's always interesting. Yeah. Thank you for always listening. And, you know, I love talking to you, and I appreciate that you remember or took advice that I gave you four, four years ago.
[00:40:15] Oh. I remember it. I have-- You've given me a lot of really good advice, and I really appreciate it. I've learned a lot from you. I've probably learned more from you than you've learned from me in, in our lifetime. That's not true. Well- But at least it can go both ways. Yeah. Okay. I love you. I love you. Talk soon.
[00:40:36] Talk soon.