Episode 7: The Sin Next to Murder

Season #1 July 01, 2026

In this episode, Kari and Kimberly take on purity culture. They talk about what they were taught about sex growing up in the LDS church and the lasting damage that sexual repression does to individuals, relationships, and families.

They discuss the difference between protecting children and shaming them, the double standard between men and women, why repression doesn't work and what sexual integration looks like instead, and the real harm done when institutions neglect teaching about consent. Drawing on the work of LDS sex therapist Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, they explore what it might look like to raise children with a healthier, more honest relationship with their bodies and sexuality whether inside or outside the church.

If you have ever carried shame about your body, your desires, or your choices, and wondered if that shame was actually deserved, you will relate to this episode.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00]

[00:00:05] Hi, I'm Kari

[00:00:06] And I'm Kimberly, and this is Coffee and Cocoa a podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith.

[00:00:13] We're a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide.

[00:00:19] Um, today I wanted to bear my testimony about tulips because tulips are, I don't know if they're my, favorite flower, but I love tulips so much and I love when they start coming out in the stores.

[00:00:32] And they put 'em out and they just grow all kinds of crazy ways once you can buy 'em. And they're not even bloomed yet. And as they bloom, they do all kinds of funny things and cute things, and I just love tulips. It's kind of silly. I buy tulips every time I go to the store. And they make me happy.

[00:00:49] You do you do?

[00:00:51] Is that your favorite flower? Probably not my favorite. I don't know if I could just pick a favorite, I think. But yeah, I, I, I'm trying to think if I would guess that. 'cause you do buy tulips a lot. Uh, especially white ones. One time I bought these white ones that just like, I put 'em in water and they were just really tight in the bud and as I put 'em in water, they just grew and they kind of like.

[00:01:14] Just spun all over the place. The stems just kind of spun all over the place. It was the weirdest thing, but it was so cool. I know that's silly, but just a little thing that makes me happy. Yeah. Um, I would say that I wanna bear my testimony on springtime because it might be my favorite season. At the turn of every season, I'm like, this is my favorite season.

[00:01:35] I get so excited. I love. The change, like even winter when winter's coming, when it's like, oh, now it's time to like read a book and be cozy and like Christmas time and all of that. Um, but I'm at the part of winter that I do not like. Right. And I'm really excited, like I keep, every time I leave the subway station and it hurts to breathe.

[00:01:57] Um. I am just picturing myself, I know in a few months I'm gonna get out of work. I'm gonna go get a city bike. I'm gonna bike down the West Side Highway. It's gonna be warm. I'm gonna be playing good music, like if it's gonna be okay again. But I'm ready for spring in. I love spring. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it is so cold back there right now.

[00:02:20] I just, every time I look the, yeah, I'm like, oh, how are you even surviving yesterday? And today were the coldest days for the year. Um, and it feels like category, it's not the coldest temperature wise, but the feels like yesterday was negative 16 and today was negative 14. And I, you know, I'm not a scientist, but I can say it does feel.

[00:02:43] Feel negative 14. It does feel like my face hurts. Um, but on a positive note, spring will come. Spring will come. New York's fabulous in the spring. I'm really excited. I'm thinking about spring a lot lately. Oh, I wanna come visit. Yeah, you should come again. Just come each season. Yes. Yes. I love that. So we're, we're kind of having a rough topic today.

[00:03:09] Mm-hmm. But I think it's something that you and I talk a lot. We could probably make five podcasts about this. Mm-hmm. But we're gonna try and just do it in an hour. Um, so we're talking about sexual purity, um, and worthiness and how that has affected us growing up in the church. Yeah. So just. Starting off, what would you say, like growing up or when you were raising kids, kind of what you were taught around sexual purity?

[00:03:38] Well, you just don't do it right? That sex is only for marriage and that, um, sex outside of marriage, is it that's closest to murder is what I was taught. Um. It said that in the for strength of youth pamphlet, that the youth are given in the church that the only sin that is more serious is murder or denying the Holy Ghost, which is interesting.

[00:04:05] Um. And so it was just you are not allowed to have sex in any form, and not only not allowed to have sex, but anything like unto it, right? That making out is not okay. Any kind of touching each other is not okay. And so even like dating, you're not allowed to date till you're 16. You shouldn't have a boyfriend.

[00:04:29] You shouldn't think about it too much. That was a big deal, was to keep your thoughts pure and virtuous. Um, again, virtue meaning specifically sexually pure, and. That was definitely what I tried to teach you guys too, was that sex was only for marriage, and that preserving, that saving yourself for marriage would make your marriage more special and that relationship more special, so, mm-hmm.

[00:05:02] I was also definitely taught that sex inside marriage was good and important. Yeah. So there's that piece of it. What were you taught? Yeah, I, or what do you remember? I mean, that sounds funny because I was the one doing the teaching. Right. But, but like, I don't think that's true. Like, I think as we've been having these conversations, like I've been reflecting a lot on like, what did my parents teach me and what did the church teach me?

[00:05:27] And I assumed had the stamp of approval from my parents. You know, like I've kind of been separating those things more. Which is interesting. Yeah. But I would agree, like when I talk to my friends that also grew up religious, like all of us have some kind of sense around purity culture and growing up in purity culture.

[00:05:43] And um, I think what's unique about the Mormon churches, what you said is like so specific in the rules do not date at all until you're 16. And when you're 16, you double date. And we had a rule that you couldn't double date. The same person over and over again. 'cause then that was actually dating. And whenever I tried to explain that to someone who didn't grow up Mormon, they're like, what?

[00:06:04] And I'm like, yeah. So I had a guy I liked and we would go on a date and then we'd go on a separate date where we're dating other people and then we'd go back and have another date where we were dating each other. And that was okay, but not okay. 'cause we still were kind of sectioning off together. So it just has so many rules.

[00:06:21] Even like you were saying, the strength of youth pamphlet. They were so specific about do not even be in the horizontal position. Yeah. With someone, the opposite sex, which I think they've changed since they have, they've changed it. And maybe we can, um, talk about what it says now because it's a lot different.

[00:06:39] And I think it's, it shows a lot of improvement, but most of the adults that are raising children now, were raised with that, that pamphlet, right? Yeah. That said, well, and I do remember how you taught me not to make fun of you. I think it was sweet, but you were like, sex is beautiful, sex is wonderful, sex is of God.

[00:07:03] You should share that with your eternal partner, which I think was a good way to explain it. Mm-hmm. But also like led to me like wanting it more, doing stuff. No, no, not necessarily. But I did rebel and I did do stuff in high school, but I was terrified because I didn't understand the mechanics really, of getting pregnant.

[00:07:22] Mm-hmm. So I didn't have any kind of safe practices around it. Yeah. I was just like, we're doing everything except actual sex. Like, you know, it just gave me weird understandings around it. Yeah. Um. Well, and if you look at the broader culture, there's some really weird understandings of it, right? Yeah. I don't know.

[00:07:42] I don't wanna get into to actual mechanics of weird things that people do at BYU, but some very strange and obnoxious things, right? And like, are we okay? Are we over the line? Where was the line all along? Yeah. Yeah. And also there is like that kind of like bridger kind of vibes of like. I don't know if you know, the first season of Bridgeton, a lot of the plot follows the fact that her mom doesn't tell her how you have children, but actually creates children.

[00:08:10] Like, she keeps like doing flowery language around it. Um, so it's a huge plot point. But Mormonism is the same in that like, you're not really taught a lot about sex. It's kind of like hush hush is kind of like. Uh, it's for your, your eternal partner after you've been married in the temple, and then after you get married in the temple, you're supposed to be at it.

[00:08:29] Know exactly what you're doing. Have all these kids. I think of stories like. There, there's a, there's a tall tale that goes around our family about, um, somebody coming in their wedding night with their lingerie over their garments. Oh. And like, that's hilarious to our family. But also, if you're 19 getting married and you haven't talked about sex your whole life, how are you supposed to know?

[00:08:53] Yeah. You're told to keep your garments on all the time. So that's the thing too, is that it was really a weird experience teaching that to you guys as kids because, because from my experiences growing up, I knew that you would have boyfriends and you would have feelings, and you would have, you know, sexual feelings and all of that kind of stuff.

[00:09:14] Um, but I think, I think the idea was just to kind of keep the breaks on it as much as possible. But I think also it was a problem because I didn't really teach you anything about it. I didn't teach you anything about consent or about boundaries or about, you know, respecting your own body or about what it was for or anything like that.

[00:09:36] And, and that was because I was trying to keep you from becoming curious about it, which obviously. I mean, kids are curious about it, but it's, that's just a natural, yeah. Reaction and I think you also weren't prepared to have kids in a digital age where everyone I know had easy access to porn and Right.

[00:09:58] I feel like that changes the way that you parent around sex a lot. Yeah. The internet changed the, the game on me a lot because what, the way that my parents parented me, there was no way that that was gonna work with you guys. And I didn't know anything different. Yeah. You weren't prepared. It felt like I was prepared to be a mom, but nobody was prepared for the internet.

[00:10:22] Right. There was no way to be prepared for that. No. I watched like a whole Ted talk about this, about like you can't parent in a world that you don't understand, and the internet was a whole different world that parents not only weren't taught how to parent within, but also didn't understand themselves.

[00:10:39] Yeah. Enough to parent because we were learning it faster than they were. Yeah. That's real. Sorry. So I watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I talk about it with my friends all the time because I'm the local Mormon expert. Um, but this episode came out that everyone was appalled by because Taylor, Frankie Paul is talking about, um, her boyfriend cheated on her, but it wasn't clear if he cheated because.

[00:11:03] They weren't officially dating yet, but they were having sex and they're having this whole argument and they're having this argument in front of their parents and her dad says something to her that everyone was appalled by. And I just, I sent you the clip. Okay. You can watch it. Um, it's starting at one minute.

[00:11:18] Okay. So the first minute, you don't need to watch, but start at at minute one. Okay. It's gonna take while to get there. I hear another girl admitted. So sad that I needed space. He went and hooked up with that very night. I found out it was falling my eyes out during that time when I slept with the girl.

[00:11:36] I hung with Taylor three times or two times. Two nights after that. He goes, and Taylor, you're pretty much the only girl I'm seeing. I've trashed him. You go over the next night, me, and then you go and you hang out with another girl and then comes the next night. Again, I wasn't lying to you about someone else.

[00:11:58] Shit. He just told me that you guys had seen each other three times. You know Taylor before all this, and then you're sitting there telling me that he came over and had sex with you. What does that say about you? I'm not you guys. That's what I'm saying. I trash Oh, that it or, yeah. Yeah, you can end it. She talks a little bit about like how it hurt.

[00:12:25] So she was hurt by this person and her parents are like. well, what, what are your opinions on it first? Well, it's very typical of the attitude that we have in our culture about, about the double standard between men and women. Mm-hmm. That's what I'm seeing is that. like he's allowed to sleep with whoever he wants to sleep with, but she's supposed to remain clean and pure and not have sex with men.

[00:12:55] Yeah. I also, 'cause she talks about that, she talks about how I'm coming to my parents about, and they're dramatizing it, it's TV show, but she's like, you know, I'm coming to my parents. You really hurt me. And her dad is like, yeah, but. You met him three times and had sex with him. Like, and, and that's kind of what I'm saying is like, it's kind of a culture of Yeah, but what did you expect?

[00:13:19] You were unpure. Um, yeah. Lots of consequences that happened to women. They're like, yeah, but I don't know. You were drinking. That's in the culture. Why? Yeah. What were you wearing? Culture. Right. Yeah. And for Mormons, it's, it's like a lot. Like of course you're gonna get hurt, of course you're gonna get, cheated on.

[00:13:35] Of course you're gonna get played. Of course you're gonna get, you know, all of these things and you're gonna feel like trash because you are acting like trash. Mm. Yeah. It's. It's such a problem. I mean, like, I do think, like, I think that this is one of those things that we disagree on, right? Because I don't think that sex should just be casual.

[00:13:56] Mm-hmm. I think that sex is, is powerful and it's sharing your body with some somebody and it's, it's an sharing your emotions with somebody and I think that that is really a powerful force that can be taken too lightly. Mm-hmm. And, and I think that we like. Do you disagree with me on about that? I don't think that that is like a truth.

[00:14:20] Like I think that you can absolutely feel that way about sex, and if you feel that way about sex, you should have the tools to explore that about yourself and to know how to have sex safely for you. Mm-hmm. I think that there are plenty of people that. Sex feels different to them. And how they utilize that as a tool for pleasure or fun or connection mm-hmm.

[00:14:44] Is different. And I think that when you give people and give society and culture at large, a one size fits all approach to sex mm-hmm. Of like, this should be emotional to you, this should feel important to you, this should be impactful. Then you do end up with, well of course you were hurt. You were just kind of throwing that around.

[00:15:07] Mm. Whereas like my opinion is if you're. Engaging in intercourse with someone. Mm-hmm. Right. You should be clearer on what the boundaries are around that. And the boundary can be, Hey, we're just casually having sex, but you shouldn't be casually having sex with somebody else. And if you say to me, I, I'm not doing that with somebody else, and you do go do that with somebody else, that is hurtful.

[00:15:31] that does not make you in the wrong for wanting to casually have sex. Well, okay, so this is what I'm seeing is that if we don't have a universal standard of this is what this is. Mm-hmm. And everybody is allowed to have their own, which I, I'm not disagreeing with. Mm-hmm. Then that has to be really clearly defined in every situation, right?

[00:15:57] Mm-hmm. And I think that that's kind of, from what I've seen. That's kind of been what's, what people are trying to do is, is really define okay of this conversation. Have very explicit consent of, you know, like, can I kiss you even, kind of thing. Right. And I think that that's valid, Um, and part of the drama of this is that she's going to her dad and she knows that he has a different idea of what sex is.

[00:16:29] Do you know what I mean? And so it's kind of putting them in a situation where they have different expectations. It, I mean, it's basically pressuring this kind of an, an explosion and, and it's kind of not fair, but also, but it's hurtful, right? He should value her more than his opinions about sex. Yeah, I think that the way that parents who raise their kids in this purity culture use sex.

[00:16:57] Right? It's like, Hey, don't climb up that tree. If you fall, it's gonna really hurt. Mm-hmm. And then they climb up the tree and they fall. And you're like, I told you, if you climbed up that tree that you would fall and it would really hurt. And sex isn't necessarily that. I feel like it's setting it up as.

[00:17:12] This is what it is and this is the probable consequence, or this is a very possible consequence, and I think that sex isn't a tree. I think that it is much better to say, Hey, in your life you are probably going to do this thing. Here are some tools to prepare you for different situations where you might want to do this thing.

[00:17:34] To me, it's more like sending your kid to school. I'm sending you to school. It's gonna be hard. It's kind of inevitable. Here's some things that might happen. Make sure you have your pencil with you. Here's some crayons, here's a backpack. That kind of thing, rather than this thing of don't touch it. Yeah.

[00:17:52] And if you do, well, of course you got hurt. So I've been reading this book by, by Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and she's a Mormon sex therapist, and she's amazing. She's really good. But she talks a lot about how. Our, our goal in the church has been sexual repression, like, don't do it except for in this situation and how, mm-hmm.

[00:18:13] And how our goal really should be sexual integration, which means more of like, okay, you are a sexual being and. How do you want to use that capacity in a way that creates good in your life? Mm-hmm. Like making conscious choices about how you want to bring that into your life in a good way. And I think that that's going back to what you're saying, it's more of, of an education rather than a don't do it kind of thing.

[00:18:44] And part of it for me is that our theology, what we believe about God is that God has a body and that mm-hmm. That we have a heavenly father and a heavenly mother that are sexual beings. Right. That have, oh, don't worry. I tell everyone that. Do you tell everyone that? Yeah. I'm always like, you know. Yeah.

[00:19:05] Tell me how you explain that. I say. In a crass way that you wouldn't appreciate on the podcast table, but that, that's the truth. We believe in an embodied God, and we believe that our bodies are, are precious gifts and amazing gifts. And I mean, they are, our bodies have mm-hmm. Incredible capacity to absorb the environment around us in a way that brings us pleasure and joy.

[00:19:28] Mm-hmm. And, and to interact with our environment in a way that. Brings us pleasure and joy. And so that's our, that's like our theology, but we don't believe. Mm-hmm. But we believe that, you know, we're only supposed to, participate in these very specific ways. Yeah. Right. And that, and I mean, there's kind of a culture of like sex is for having babies and, and that kind of thing.

[00:19:55] Yeah. Wasn't there a time that, like the church even. Try to make a stand against oral sex since it wasn't for reproduction and that kind of, yeah. Got. It out really quickly. Yeah. That's an really interesting incident in the church history, right? Because somebody said it and then they're just like, oh, we're never saying that They didn't retract it, but they were just like, we're never saying that again.

[00:20:18] Right. Nobody ever talked about that. Take that out of the Temple. Interview it. It's really interesting because they're like, we're gonna lose all our members. No, but. But there, I think it was just like, okay, nobody wants to ask that in a temple. You know? No bishop or wants to be like, okay, we're really getting specific about what you're doing.

[00:20:42] Yeah. We're not gonna get specific about that. So they walked that back really quick. But there are definitely people in in the church that believe that. That still believe that. Yeah. Right. Or the people that will make sure that a piece of their garments are still on, or lots of various. Things. Yeah. And so in parenting, some of those people are gonna be teaching my children.

[00:21:05] Right. And my children may or may not tell me those things. But going back to the idea of sexual integration, the idea that God gave us these bodies that are amazing mm-hmm. And that are capable of This kind of pleasure and this kind of joy in, in our embodiment. And because we have such a fear of it and we want to control it so much, it causes all kinds of these other problems because we're trying, rather than trying to integrate it and accept it and take joy in it, we are trying to control it and repress it and make sure that it's not causing problems, which it can.

[00:21:47] Right. Like, I mean. Sex can actually be hurtful to people, right? Sex can be used. Yeah. In ways, plenty of ways. Lots of ways that can be very, very hurtful, not least of which is mm-hmm. Creating children that are not wanted. I mean, I think that that's a lot of where, where the repression came from is because, uh, you know, I mean, we're talking historically like before birth control was available, then you have entire people's lives that.

[00:22:17] Into the world, unwanted and uncared for, and that's a problem, right? And so if you're thinking of sex as like sex causes, babies, then it makes sense. Why they tried to put so many constraints around it. Yeah. Yeah. I think I disagree with what they are trying to do because I don't think that more babies has ever been a problem for the Mormon church.

[00:22:39] Um, famously they have put multiple women to one man to just keep having babies. Um, I think that it's more about like. How much can we control? And if we're controlling this urge that you have constantly, then you're thinking about us constantly. I don't think that that's why it gets repeated from parents to children.

[00:22:59] I think that what you said, parents are trying to control all of the different ways that you can be hurt by sex, like different diseases, um, you know, pregnancy scares or, you know, having a new responsibility that you weren't expecting or, um. Abuse or mm-hmm. Things like that. But that's not actually repression, like you said, isn't actually how we prevent those things.

[00:23:22] Right. Repression just doesn't work flat out. Yeah. What it, I had a quote from her. I'm gonna read it really quick. Uh, okay. It repression doesn't work. It turns into pro preoccupation. Either the preoccupation of indulgence or the preoccupation of continuing to repress, or the preoccupation that emerges when the marriage is suffering, or the, you know, even the relationship is suffering because it lacks spiritual and sexual depth

[00:23:48] Um, it, it not only doesn't work, but it actually really interferes with what our spiritual project really is. And then she talks about that, uh, the spiritual project is, is figuring out how do I relate to pleasure? How do I relate to embodiment mm-hmm. In a way that is deeply moral, that creates goodness in my life, and how do I relate to my capacity for pleasure in a way that accrues to my wellbeing and the strength of my relationships.

[00:24:18] And so I like that. Yeah. I, I mean, just the idea of sex being, and. We can disagree about this, but that sex is a powerful force to create these relationships and to create goodness in your life, you know? Mm-hmm. But, but it can also be really wildly misused and hurtful. So I think there's a lot of good in having sex within a relationship and all of that, but I think that the repression leading up to.

[00:24:46] When you're getting married. Mm-hmm. Or sex within a marriage creates, like she said, a lot of preoccupation with it. So many problems. And not only with your relationship with sex, but with your relationship with yourself. I, I remember feeling so much shame around it all the time. It controlled everything I did, especially once I hit being a teenager and.

[00:25:09] I started getting noticed even though it wasn't my fault. I remember specifically a time we were in a gas station and I always wore these shorts to go to cheer practice in. Mm-hmm. And we were in the gas station and I had just gotten back from, um, cheer practice. You were picking me up. We were on the way home and we were getting our, you know, giant tight cokes and we got out of the gas station and we got in the car and you were like, you are not wearing those shorts out again.

[00:25:38] Mm-hmm. And it was 'cause you had noticed someone staring at me. Yeah. But I think for you, like again, the urge is to protect and it creates control. And in me it equates shame. I remember for some reason this all revolved around cheerleading 'cause I almost couldn't cheer because. The uniform wasn't appropriate.

[00:25:57] Oh yeah. And I remember the shorts or the skirt or whatever when I got home, I needed to change because it wasn't appropriate to wear that around the house. And a lot of shame around like. When I was sending pictures of me in a tank top to a boy or things like that, like, like I felt that language of like, I am trash for doing this.

[00:26:17] Yeah. Well, and I mean, the narrative in the church is very much about women being the temptress. Right? It is very much like men are the sexual actors and women are the, are the acted upon in this situation. Right? Yeah. And so with women, it's a lot about protecting and about covering up out, you can become pornography for men.

[00:26:43] Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. And And it's really damaging for men too, because it's like, okay, well then you're not as responsible for your urges. It's her fault. And so then you don't feel that need as a man To take responsibility for your feelings and your sexuality. Well, I think to be fair, I do think that men feel a lot of shame around sex in the church.

[00:27:10] Oh yeah. Especially in my generation with the easy access to porn. Mm-hmm. I remember a friend who also left the church. We were talking and we were kind of digesting things about high school and he was like, I felt so bad about myself because I would watch porn and I think all day about like not watching porn and don't watch porn again.

[00:27:28] And then eventually I led into it and then he was like, did you know that? Every guy watches porn. And I was like, yeah, I did know that. I did know that. That was something that wasn't just you and your, you know? Yeah. Trashy little home being so irresponsible and dirty and like, yeah. That's just a normal urge.

[00:27:49] And did you know that as a kid, No. Right. No. And in fact, I think that's what the church makes you feel individually is that this is your own dirty little secret. This is your own big, yeah. Like even things like, I remember looking at myself in a swimsuit and being like, I like my body. And as a woman, there are not a lot of times that you get to feel that in your life.

[00:28:07] Mm-hmm. And immediately I was like, but we have to cover it up. You know? I can't even enjoy that little like spot in my life where I genuinely felt good, you know? Yeah, it is so sad. But no, I think to your point that not dealing with it on an institutional level, I think that it does, it becomes, okay, there's something wrong with you and, and it causes a lot of shame.

[00:28:29] Yeah. And both men and women. Yeah. You need to read this, this book because, because it, she has such a good take On all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I like that, like, you know, like what I was saying about climbing the tree versus the backpack, like trying to explain that. I feel like she said that more cohesively of, you know, this is repression versus integration.

[00:28:52] Like understanding that we all have these urges and your inability to turn that off completely isn't a personal failure. No. And is actually just your nature and is actually. You're God given nature from a God that loves you. I, I do agree. If there is a God, they made us enjoy sex for a reason. Yeah. Um, and I think too, like, you know, 'cause I'm talking to all these people that have.

[00:29:16] These same issues around sexual purity, then like you think about people, especially in my generation, getting married to one another, having all of these bad ideas that make them feel bad about themselves anyways. Mm-hmm. And then you just throw that into a relationship together. It does a lot of harm. It does hurt relationships because you come in with these different expectations and you know, like we were talking about earlier in the church, you think that there's just this one universal.

[00:29:45] Expectation and meaning for what sex is. Mm-hmm. And you think that you know what it is and your partner thinks that they know what it is. Right? And so then you don't communicate really well about it either. Mm-hmm. And so, She talks a lot in the book about, about higher and lower desire partners and how men are usually the higher desire partners, but not always.

[00:30:09] And how those expectations of different things cause so many different problems because we don't know how to communicate about it. We don't even know we're supposed to enjoy it and love it. Mm-hmm. Or that we can if we want to, and we don't have to. And so it, it really does cause a lot of heartache between husbands and wives and, and I'm sure between partners of every kind because we don't know how to share our expectations and we make assumptions about the other person.

[00:30:43] Yeah. I think that for women, if you're taught that your man is just. Chomping at the bit and is a sexual creature and you can even become pornography to him if there's a time that he doesn't seem interested or at the same level of interested for you. You can feel like, what's wrong with me? I've definitely struggled with that and I didn't even have a traditional Mormon relationship.

[00:31:05] Mm-hmm. And I think. On the men's side, you can feel like the women's pleasure isn't important, or you can feel like, well, she talks a lot about how, how men in the church feel like they're hurting the women in their lives by doing it. Ah, she talks about how they feel guilty for, for doing this to this person that they love, but then they feel guilty about taking their sexuality.

[00:31:30] Other places, you know about looking at porn and marriage or anything like that. so yeah, we need to be able to talk about it more in, in a way of integrating it and accepting it and not being so repressive about it because repressing it has not worked. It doesn't work. It causes a lot of other problems in the church and in society in general.

[00:31:57] Yeah. And I think one of the biggest like. Problems too that we don't have time to discuss fully is how in the church it leads to abuse. We talk about how there's not any conversation around consent. So even if you are in a church approved marriage and having sex in a church approved way, there are issues of consent.

[00:32:17] And then outside of the church, Women who have spoken up are told that they were the ones to blame, or even men that have spoken up. I think men, when it occurs to them, almost have it worse because they are to blame. They didn't stop it. Right. And then that's not even getting into worthiness interviews and how we're putting children in conversation with men in positions of power.

[00:32:40] Mm-hmm. Consent. They're being asked about without consent. Any other adults present without supervision. Yeah. Um, and they're asked about their sexual experiences. Yeah, it does cause a whole lot of problems because we're so afraid to talk about things. Right. Evenwhen something happens, there's so much shame around it with the in individual that, that they don't feel like they can come out and, and talk to their parents about it or talk to another adult or somebody that they trust about it.

[00:33:12] And so it compounds the problem. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then like you said in the beginning, there's the whole issue of it being blamed back on the woman or on the girl. Mm-hmm. Even like, what was she wearing? And, and girls should be allowed to wear what makes them comfortable. Mm-hmm. I had sent to a reel a while ago of a guy talking about, um, he was reacting to a video where a dad was talking about how can I explain to my 10-year-old daughter that crop tops are not.

[00:33:43] Appropriate for her to wear, and he's like, mm-hmm. Why aren't crop tops appropriate for little girls to wear? Why are we talking to little girls about wearing crop tops? Why are we not talking to men? About 10-year-old stomachs are not sexual objects ever for any reason. Yeah. I think that these are the conversations, mm-hmm.

[00:34:07] That we need to be having. Is that okay, how are we looking at purity and sexual repression, and how do we need to change the conversation about it and figure it out? Yeah. So where do we go from here with that? Do you think? I, I mean, unfortunately, my opinion is throw the church out. Like when it comes to this, like I just, I, I think sexual purity is a really hard thing for me.

[00:34:32] I think that we've created way too much of a system of abuse. Um, we, the church has silenced people who have spoken out about the worthiness interviews and how inappropriate they are. Um. There, there are still women who come to their bishops about being raped that are told that they can't take the sacrament, that they're not worthy.

[00:34:54] Mm-hmm. I, I, I really have a bleak view on that. I think as a society and how I plan, if I have children that I need to teach this to, like I would teach them, here's your body, here are some safe ways to explore it by yourself. Here are some safe ways to explore it with other people and when that is appropriate, um, and that, you know, that appropriate.

[00:35:15] Level is not when it's a marriage. It'll be about conversations, about consent, and about, probably age restrictions of like, Hey, 12 is not an appropriate time to be doing this. You should be waiting until both of you are at the age of consent. Like, things like that. I, I think that's a much better way to do it.

[00:35:32] And I think that when you don't put shame around it, when you treat it like any other, um, bodily experience that. It's okay. And I think that that helps them have a better relationship with themselves and be more accepting of what they want and don't want. Because to your point, some people do want to only have sex with one person ever.

[00:35:55] And that's totally fair. And you can learn that for yourself and you can figure that out. Mm-hmm. And I think that there are some people that might take a minute to figure out what they want and there should be safe space for them to do that. Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything that you said except for

[00:36:09] I think that that needs to be done within the church too.I think we need to take a really hard look at purity culture within the church and um, and the discussions around modesty and it's happening. There are some of these conversations happening.

[00:36:25] It's not as fast. Like I said in the beginning, they've changed the, for strength of youth. I wish I'd looked it up and and read exactly what it said, but they changed this for the strength of youth that it doesn't talk about. It being, you know, next to murder and sin or, and it doesn't give specifics of exactly what is okay and what is not.

[00:36:46] Okay. So there is progress being made. It's not fast enough. There's still damage being done and, and it still hurting. But I think that that's why we just need to talk about it more and have more conversations about it, which is kind of why we're doing this podcast or part of it anyways. Yeah. There's so much more to talk about with it.

[00:37:08] Yeah. There's a lot of problems that, that come with the idea of sexual repression in the church and I just think that we need to keep talking about it. So, yeah, and, and to be fair too, like this is not just a Mormon church problem. This, this is almost all institutions, all churches, it has problems like this.

[00:37:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Society has problems like this. And so, um, just saying that it's just a problem with, with the church, I think is. Um, a little bit naive, like it, it's not only, it's not only the church, it's, yeah, no, it's absolutely a society problem, but through the tools, which are the institutions that are created and the church is one of those institutions.

[00:38:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. Anyways, interesting conversation. Thanks for talking through things with me.

[00:38:07] Thank you. Love you. I love you.

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