[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Hi, I am Kari.
[00:00:01] And I'm Kimberly. And this is Coffee and Cocoa. A podcast about reconstructing your family when they've deconstructed their faith.
[00:00:09] We are a mother and a daughter having conversations from both sides of the faith divide.
[00:00:15] And today I wanna start by bearing my testimony about getting older.
[00:00:20] I have had a birthday between the last time we talked to now and. It is not a big birthday, but it is preemptive to a big birthday. This is my last year of my twenties and I've been thinking a lot about my twenties and what I wanna do with my last year before I'm 30. And I'm just so grateful to be older and to be wiser, and to have a chance to get better and better every year.
[00:00:49] And I think. When I was younger, I thought that we would like hit a point where now you're an adult and that's who you are. And I am so grateful that that's not how it is and that we change constantly.
[00:01:01] I love that. I would say, 'cause I'm a little older than my twenties, that I resonate with everything you just said because it's true.
[00:01:11] Like I think I thought that there was a point that I would be like, now I have arrived and it hasn't happened yet and I'm older
[00:01:21] Yeah, I guess it's like so classic Christian to be like the different seasons of our lives, but I'm so grateful for like every piece of my life so far and the journey I've been on, and I'm grateful to be here.
[00:01:34] Love that. I want to bear my testimony about Zoom because Zoom is my little miracle for my scattered family because we do a family call every Sunday night, and not everybody's always there, but it's an opportunity for us to spend some time together and I always think it's. Like, in my ideal world, I would have everybody over for dinner every Sunday night and we would just
[00:02:02] mm-hmm.
[00:02:02] Sit around and, and have dinner together and laugh and all be together. But Zoom is the next best thing.
[00:02:10] It's what we have until we have teleportation. Right?
[00:02:13] Yes. Then can have Sunday and I look forward to that. Yes. Sunday dinners together. That would be awesome.
[00:02:18] So what are we talking about today?
[00:02:20] Today we are talking about estrangement, which I know is What we wanted to most talk about. I think coming into this like that's the thesis of this is rebuilding your family after they've deconstructed their faith, which is really hard to do. Like I think a lot of people end up estranged from one another when that happens. And talking about building that bridge.
[00:02:44] So just starting out, I think that one of the interesting things about the estrangement that happens between parents and children, particularly in the Mormon church, is that the Mormon church has this selling point of eternal families. Like that's, that's their main selling point is that you can be with your family forever, but sometimes they're actually the reason that we lose our families.
[00:03:07] Like sometimes they're the thing getting in the way of
[00:03:10] Mm-hmm
[00:03:12] us coming together when we have those differences.
[00:03:15] Yeah, it is and it's interesting because, you know, because I always grew up with the idea of families can be together forever. And it wasn't until like you guys started leaving the church that I was, I realized that like that was a conditional statement.
[00:03:32] Families can be together forever and like implicit in that is the idea that maybe they can't be for together forever. I was so afraid of that, of losing you guys, right? Like that was my big fear that you could do something or that I could do something or we could not do something that would make it possible that we wouldn't be together for.
[00:03:57] And so yeah, it's an interesting kind of double-edged sword there.
[00:04:03] Yeah. I think that it's hard to talk about, right? Because sometimes the church does this thing where they're like, well, we don't really say that. We don't say that You're not going to be with your family if you don't do these things.
[00:04:13] But I, I feel like we have to state that that is implicit in the church. That like, there are lots of conversations like I was looking in and there's that whole narrative about like no empty chairs and making sure that everyone is safe within the covenant of the church. Um, and like some things that like I.
[00:04:32] I scripture studied for this mom. Um, I found D&C uh, chapter 68, verse 25, which says, "And again, inasmuch as the parents who have children in Zion or in any of her stakes, which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ, the son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents." So there's this implicit, like in the doctrine idea that parents are in charge of making sure that their kids stay within the church.
[00:05:14] Yeah. Well, if you read it close, it says.
[00:05:19] If they teach them not to understand. Right. Yeah. But that's definitely how I read it always. And I think it's how it's talked about always that if you like, I mean obviously if I taught you right, you would do it. Yeah. So there must been something wrong with the way you That is so yeah. So the sin was on my head and that was, yeah, that was a lot.
[00:05:45] Yeah. And another one was that I found interesting was a conference talk, um, by James E Faust in April, 2003, and it was titled, Dear Are the Sheep That Wander. And one of the quotes from it is, "An important element of doing the best we can as parents is to provide loving but firm discipline. If we do not discipline our children, society may do it in a way that is not to our liking or our children's."
[00:06:10] So it is like this repetitive message in the church. Yeah. That you have to teach your children the right way. And that a lot of times turns into you have to make your children do the right thing, which is the church thing.
[00:06:26] Yeah. Yeah. There's another scripture and I'm not as good as you, I didn't look up the references, but it's, "Teach a child the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
[00:06:37] Right. And that's not true.
[00:06:40] That didn't turn out to be true in my life. No. Right.
[00:06:44] And like that was a lot of like personal therapy I guess, was, it's like, okay, did I teach them? Like I taught you guys the church, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, we had scripture study and we had Family Home Evening and I took you to church every weekend, all of that kind of stuff.
[00:07:00] And so, because there was a lot of like that this is my fault, that they left the church. Mm-hmm. Then once I got past all of that, then I was like, oh, okay. Actually agency is a thing.
[00:07:13] Yeah.
[00:07:14] Right.
[00:07:15] And your children do become adults and have different opinions.
[00:07:19] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:21] Well, and I also remember in the church, like they always like prompt you to think of the eternal perspective, right?
[00:07:28] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:28] This idea that what happens on earth doesn't matter as long as you make it into the Celestial Kingdom. So what, whatever happens to you, you have to stay righteous, you have to do the right thing. And I think that for some parents. That eternal perspective makes them so focused and so worried on making their children make it to the Celestial Kingdom, like do the things that the church says that they should do, that they lose perspective of what's actually happening in front of them. You know, you're so worried about your child going on a mission that you're missing, like who they are
[00:08:02] Yeah
[00:08:02] in front of you at that point, and what they might need and also what might be exciting in their life that's not a mission.
[00:08:09] Yeah. And that was absolutely my perspective was it was like, this is the most important thing and everything else was kind of secondary to that. And, and it makes me sad because there's a lot that I missed, right? There's a lot that I missed. And not even just, not hitting those milestones of people going on missions and getting married in the temple, but like I missed who you were and I missed really connecting with who you were, and enjoying, the people that you were at that point.
[00:08:44] And I think like when that perspective shifted, I think of things like, it was so cool that you guys came to Massachusetts for my graduation and we could celebrate that milestone.
[00:08:56] Whereas I think before it might've been like, yeah, but when are you gonna get married? You know, I think that there's a lot of good that comes from realizing that this might be our only life together and we want to appreciate what is here.
[00:09:09] Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
[00:09:13] Because as a child, when the parent is so focused on making sure that you're fitting a certain box for your own safety or your own protection, it feels like rejection.
[00:09:23] Like it feels like I'm doing all of these cool things. Or I'm doing the things I want to with my life. Mm-hmm. Or you're not happy for me. Yeah. Yeah. And that makes me so sad. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm sure that all parents have certain things that they wish they would've done differently. And that's, I mean, we've talked about that before.
[00:09:44] Like, I don't know how else I would've learned the things that I learned without going through what we went through. Yeah. And so. So I'm grateful for that, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to see you guys differently now and to, to just, be able to love, like, to learn how to love you more unconditionally, I guess.
[00:10:06] Yeah. So that's also a teaching in the church, right? That we talk about, about agency. I mean, that's one of the biggest things in the church is that we believe in agency.
[00:10:19] Um, I found this quote because I liked it and like, I think the other talk that I was reading this was from 2003, and this is from a conference talk in 2013, which is a decade difference, and it's a decade that straddled my upbringing and I do like the difference between them. So this is from Come Join With Us and every time I've heard this talk, it's about the "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith", quote,
[00:10:46] but another quote in this talk is, "In this church that honors personal agency so strongly that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers. We respect those who honestly search for the truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscious, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves."
[00:11:18] And I love that quote. That's a great quote.
[00:11:23] You would've been in high school. I would've made you watch that, that talk.
[00:11:26] We probably did watch it, and I don't remember that from that time.
[00:11:30] Yeah. That's an interesting thing to me too, because the church is never just one thing. It teaches a lot of different things and it's always interesting to me how sometimes the different talks kind of push against each other like that.
[00:11:46] I'm more partial to Deitrich Uchtdorf. I like his talks more in general. So like, to me I'm like, this rings really true. But it's, it's one of those things where it's like there's good parts and there's bad parts, but. It.
[00:12:02] Yeah. There, and that's the thing is that there is a lot of truth in the church.
[00:12:08] Mm-hmm.
[00:12:08] The problem comes is when we think that everything that is ever said in the church is true and is equally
[00:12:16] Yeah
[00:12:16] applicable to all people. Right?
[00:12:18] Yeah.
[00:12:18] 'Cause it just isn't, I don't think that there's any organization that everything is always right all the time.
[00:12:26] Yeah. And I guess kind of in that idea of the truths of the church, right? That we have a God that loves us and wants what's best for us, and he gave us all personal agency.
[00:12:38] What are parents so worried about? Like is it worrying about being in the eternity, or are you worried about how it reflects your own righteousness and like how you will be judged? Or is it about like how you're gonna be judged by your community, I guess. Part of like dissecting, this is like discerning, like from the parent standpoint, like what are you actually worried about?
[00:13:04] I think it was a little bit judgment from the community and judgment from other people, because, you know, I mean, I had seen other families who had children leave the church and had seen how they were judged, right?
[00:13:16] Mm-hmm.
[00:13:17] And how they were talked about. But the biggest thing truly was that I was just afraid that I was losing you.
[00:13:24] I really was so afraid that I was losing you eternally.
[00:13:30] Yeah.
[00:13:30] And I was so scared of that, that I lost you for a while, you know, because I pushed so hard, I was trying so hard to control everything that, that I pushed you away.
[00:13:42] Yeah.
[00:13:43] So I really had to come to a place where I had faith. Like to me it's more about having faith and it's having faith in God, because I came to a place where I just decided that I couldn't believe in any kind of a Heavenly Father that was just like, okay, well if you get it all right, then you can come live with me, and if you don't, then sorry, you're gonna have to go to a lesser kingdom or whatever.
[00:14:07] Yeah.
[00:14:07] Like that just didn't, it didn't make any sense that any God that I could believe in would love my children less than I did, and care about their eternal salvation less than I did. That just didn't make any sense to me, and so,
[00:14:23] mm-hmm.
[00:14:24] So my understanding of God changed a lot during that time. and then the other thing was that I had to have faith in you guys, right? That you are good people trying to do good things. And I knew that by watching you grow up, like there was never, I don't think that there was ever anything about you that just wanted to be rotten, you know, that wanted to do bad things in the world, but I think I was afraid that, I don't know, afraid that if I didn't teach you everything perfectly, that you wouldn't be good. and then I think that the biggest part of it too was like just learning to have faith in myself that mm-hmm. I never had any malicious intent, intent at all. Uh, my motivations and my intentions were always, always good, even if I wasn't perfect.
[00:15:14] Like my intention was always to be a good mom and,, it really helped me to recognize that I was a good mom and a bad mom.
[00:15:24] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:25] Because I knew I was a bad mom. I could tell you all of the ways that I was a bad mom and, and when I was finally able to say, oh, okay, actually I did do some good things too, right?
[00:15:37] Mm-hmm. Like I did. Like the bad stuff that I did or the mistakes that I made didn't cancel out all of the good things that I did, and that was important for me, building faith in myself. Right? Yeah. So that's kind of the place that I come at it from now, is just faith in my heavenly parents, faith in in you guys, and faith in myself, and we're gonna all figure this thing out.
[00:16:04] Yeah. Well, and I do feel like like I think of loving and like the action of loving and at some point you had to pick loving your children over like your own sense of like righteousness or like righteousness in the sense of feeling right. And feeling like I am correct and I.
[00:16:25] I'm doing the right things and, and that kind of feeling, that prideful feeling, honestly, you have to pick loving your kids and trusting them and letting them have their own opinions about that. Yeah. And, and I was really fearful of that. Like when I left, I was worried. It really put us in a place where I was worried that like you'd pick your faith in the church so much that like you wouldn't ever be able to see me or love me, who I am.
[00:16:55] And that's, that was really difficult. And I think that that's, you know, you are never gonna create happiness if you are disengaging from your children. Like, I don't think that that's where that comes from.
[00:17:09] Yeah, yeah. I agree. I think, yeah, the word righteousness is really interesting, right? Mm-hmm. Because it's not, it's not the same as goodness.
[00:17:21] I think we usually think that we mean goodness when we, when we say righteousness and mm-hmm. It's not always the same, right?
[00:17:29] No, no. And I think it's kind of used in the church, like in the same way as obedience and like being correct to the church.
[00:17:41] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:43] And. Yeah. When your children leave, like it does put you in a position where you're not, I guess within your community, you're not seen that way.
[00:17:51] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I feel like the church does tell you to keep going or like keep telling your children to follow the church or keep preaching to your children, and I don't think that that creates that love.
[00:18:06] Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, and I mean, to be fair, again, the church is not always one thing.
[00:18:15] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:16] But there is some pressure in the church to bring your children back into the church. And like I said, that's not all of the teaching or anything like that, but there is some cultural pressure there that, that I have to shut out and I have to resist. I have to ignore.
[00:18:34] I think when I talk about loving and trusting and accepting your child, sometimes like there's this instinct to be like, okay, but what if they're actually in danger? And what if you know, X, y, Z thing? There is like a scale of thing that your child could do that like they do need you to I guess exercise control, like I think, you know, with any family member where there's like heavy addiction or um, where they might be harming themselves or have like serious mental health issues, like I think that there are points where like, we agree that you should step in, but I think the church like treats everything, like it's time to step in. Like anything outside of what's church appropriate. Like I think about like the way that they treat pornography, like it needs like a 12 step addiction plan and like the viewing of pornography at all is worthy of, this addiction plan.
[00:19:29] Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I, I think it's kind of a balance because like, mm-hmm. I always thought of this story of when, when I had my first baby and we were, we had taken this trip to Bryce Canyon and, and they kept trying to get down, like I was holding them on the edge of this cliff and they kept trying to get down and crawl around, and I just remember thinking, okay, I have to hold them to keep them from going off the edge. They wanted to get down and play around, but it was very like physically dangerous for them to crawl over, you know, to get too near the edge of this cliff. And, and I just remember that being an example of like, okay, well this is like, I have to set these boundaries of protecting this child. And I always use that with spiritual boundaries too. But, but they're not the same thing. Right? Like the physical danger and the spiritual danger are not the same thing.
[00:20:29] But I felt like at the time you felt like it was the same thing.
[00:20:32] Oh, I a hundred percent did.
[00:20:35] And, and you as their mother had to be like, no, I have to hold this child because they'll hurt themselves if they go down and they'll fall off the cliff and they'll die. And that would be a big deal. And I feel like you made that equal to spiritual boundaries or to like every rule that you had for us. Like Right, like I have to make sure that you don't date before you're 16 because that's the edge of a cliff or that you are preparing to go on a mission. 'cause if you don't, that's an edge of a cliff. Or like all of these like kind of instances of using, I'm protecting my child to actually just like exert control when we weren't actually in physical danger.
[00:21:20] Yeah. Yeah. But I definitely did feel like you were actually in real spiritual danger with those things, right? Like that there was going to be actual spiritual harm. And I don't think that it's necessarily not true, right? Like, I think that you do have to have boundaries around your kid and like you do have to have some boundaries around their behavior and protect them from some things, right?
[00:21:49] Yeah. I, you know, like I hear you.
[00:21:53] Mm-hmm. But not everything is the same as a toddler going off a cliff, right? Like right. They absolutely would have died, like for sure. But like I remember when I drank for the first, well, it wasn't the first time, sorry, mom, when I drank and you caught me for the first time and you stayed up the whole night crying and like it was the end of the world and it was fine.
[00:22:21] Like I was fine. I got home safe. I have drank a lot of times in my life since and have been okay. Like it is not the same as a baby going off the cliff and also spiritually, we don't actually know what's gonna happen, but I don't think that that is the difference in my exaltation or not.
[00:22:41] Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think too, I mean, just for the record, you were underage, so.
[00:22:49] That probably should've.
[00:22:50] But I wasn't falling off a cliff. I wasn't going to die. there are plenty of kids that drink underage and get in trouble in a reasonable way and it just like, like we've discussed this before, when I was telling my story, but it just creates an environment where when everything is so dramatic.
[00:23:09] And like you're falling off a cliff, then I can't come to you with any little mistake, you know?
[00:23:14] Yeah. And I was dramatic about it. That's interesting because, because I think that to my point earlier, like I should have had boundaries around you drinking underage. Mm-hmm.
[00:23:26] Right? Like that's a reasonable boundary.
[00:23:29] Mm-hmm. But like tying you up in your room and not never letting you out of your room, which was very much a temptation at that point. That's not a reasonable boundary around it.
[00:23:39] Yeah. And I'm definitely more upset that I couldn't go to my Sadie Hawkin dance than like that I drank.
[00:23:45] Right. Like as far as like long-term harm, the punishment was worse than the crime. Yeah. But like I do wanna speak to the fact that at the time I do feel like that emotion was real for you. And it, I think for a lot of parents it feels like, your kid is going off a cliff.
[00:24:05] Yeah. Yeah. What would, what do you think would've been an a, a reasonable response to that?
[00:24:11] I think there's a myriad of responses, honestly. Like, I remember a friend who, who was also Mormon, who got caught drinking and his parents as a response, woke him up the next day and made him do a lot of yard work. But I think that. Setting expectations for this is what teenagers do when they survive it.
[00:24:33] Mm-hmm. sure it's, you know, your children should follow the law and there should be boundaries and stuff like that. But I think, you know, the emotion part is a big part of it. And just understanding that they haven't somehow morphed as a person from this is important. there's just a lot of instances that I can think of, I don't know, teenagers have sex and teenagers for decades have had sex and that is normal and sometimes has worse consequences, whatever.
[00:25:02] But. If you go into an understanding that that is a human thing for a teenager to do, and that is a very normal experience. Yeah. Instead of like, this is some temptation that you have to not do. I think that that's more reasonable.
[00:25:17] That's interesting when you're talking about it that way, because if I were gonna put it into church terms mm-hmm.
[00:25:23] Like at this point now in my life, I'm like, like it's a learning experience. And, and the atonement covers that, right?
[00:25:32] Yes. Yes.
[00:25:35] If we're gonna go back to that story about like that, the atonement is actually like a safety net at the bottom of the cliff, right? Mm-hmm. There's like, I really don't believe that there's anything that you can do that will kill you spiritually. Like it's all, it's all learning and yeah, you might get hurt along the way, right? Mm-hmm. Like, like you said, there's definitely consequences to underage drinking, to underage sex and all of that kind of stuff, but there's nothing that's going to.
[00:26:03] And parents should absolutely have boundaries around things that are like actually about your child's physical safety, right?
[00:26:10] Like, yeah. With those things like, absolutely. But like, let's remember what reality is.
[00:26:16] Yeah. Yeah. Like you're not going to lose your child.
[00:26:20] And I like what you said, we're not gonna die spiritually. You know, I don't believe in a God, but if I believe in the God that is consistent with the scriptures that I grew up with, that God doesn't leave us to die spiritually. So another thing, you know, aside from like trying to control your child and protect them that way, there's like this idea that you have to be your child's missionary. Like I was researching all of these talks because sometimes I feel like what was my belief that I was taught and what was my own interpretation of it?
[00:26:53] So I kind of try to recenter, which is why I was looking up talks and scriptures for this. And one of the talks that I found was waiting for the prodigal, and it was from Brent H Nielsen in April, 2015. And I have serious beef with the story of the prodigal son.
[00:27:10] Yeah.
[00:27:11] For anyone who is not religious, the prodigal son is his story about a son that leaves and spends his inheritance or whatever and he comes back and they treat him great because he's come back.
[00:27:22] Right? Like that's the short end of it. So in this talk it talks about a sister that left the church, I think it was, and it just talks about how like over the years they just accepted her and like, and kept inviting her to family stuff and they invite her to, um, mission callings and sealings in the temples and things like that.
[00:27:45] Um, and eventually she decides to come back to the church, and I like the first part of it, like about how you should still invite people to things, even if they've left the church, like still invite them to your baptism or to your sealing or things that, that are momentous occasions for you. You can still bring them in with the rest of the family, but I hate the idea of like, do that so that one day they'll come back to the church and I just feel like this idea of waiting for them to realize the church is right is so narcissistic in the church. Like, the church is like, we're just so right. And I know that they know that and they're gonna come back one day.
[00:28:30] I really do think that mostly what they're saying
[00:28:33] is that we know that you'll come to the truth, but the idea is still narcissistic because it's like we have the truth.
[00:28:40] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:41] And we are right and you will see that we are right someday. Right. Yeah. And I think it's really important. It's been really important to me to recognize, okay, some of these things we're wrong about. Right.
[00:28:52] Some of these things we don't have exactly right. And that's a hard thing to swallow, but tell me what the difference is between accepting someone as they are and hoping that they will return to the church someday. I think it's fine to hope, like, you know, I, I think that maybe it's a little misled, but at least it's still hoping for something you would think is good.
[00:29:17] I think that some things that can help you not be holding your breath for them to come back is accepting their belief system. So I know like with us, it really helped when you heard us out about why we might wanna leave or about different beliefs that we were finding or about how we felt like we could live better lives a different way.
[00:29:42] And our reasonings for those things and, and the beliefs that we have found, like, I think. It wouldn't be cool, like I've said before, for me to be holding my breath for you to leave the church. Like I respect your belief and I try to understand it. So I think that's one thing. I think another thing is realizing, like you said, like you could be wrong.
[00:30:07] Or there are things that you have wrong. Trying to not be so, um. I guess narcissistic is the word about your beliefs are so prideful about your own beliefs or what's the word I'm looking for, I guess?
[00:30:22] Well, I think that those words are both accurate, right? Like Yeah, but it doesn't feel that way.
[00:30:28] No.
[00:30:28] Like from the experience of it, it doesn't feel narcissistic. It doesn't feel prideful. It feels. Just obvious that you're right. Yeah. But that's what I don't even know.
[00:30:40] But that's what we talked about, like your, your own, um, bias, like towards your own belief.
[00:30:45] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:46] So being able to step aside it from that being and being able to recognize that there might be a world where neither of us is right, that the afterlife looks completely different, or our purpose on earth is completely different and coming together anyways and, and saying what do we wanna do with the things that we do know are true? Um, and then also not putting your relationship on hold or holding back until they come back to the church. Like, yeah, I'd be so sad if my cousins didn't invite me to join the Zoom when they opened their mission calls or to their temple weddings or things like that just because I'm not part of the church. Yeah. Luckily I don't have to deal with that with my siblings 'cause they all left. But it, it does hurt the relationship and, and you don't wanna be holding out on everything you can give because you don't believe in the same God.
[00:31:39] Yeah. I love that. And I think it was helpful too to me to sometimes be heard out, like the, I don't know if you remember this, but when you, it was when we visited you in Florida and you asked me like, because you were thinking about moving in with your boyfriend. You asked me like what is, what is it about this belief that you think is important about being married and not moving in together?
[00:32:04] And like you really listened to me and that helped, right? Because 'cause I could see that you were actually weighing it and not just like rebelling against what I said.
[00:32:14] Yeah. And I wasn't doing it in spite of the rules that you had set for me. It was, I understand where you're coming from. Mm-hmm. That's in consideration in my choice.
[00:32:24] I'm going to make a different choice, but yeah, not blindly. Yeah. And And I feel the same way, in the opposite. I feel like you've heard us out, so I don't, when you say, I have faith in this church, I don't think that you're following it blindly.
[00:32:38] Yeah.
[00:32:39] And I think that as far as if you're strange, but to do different, I would say you are not your child's missionary. That there are missionaries out there. And I promise you that if your child has ever been a member of the church, they have their number. Mm-hmm. And um, that's not your responsibility anymore. If you raise your child in the church, I think you can put the mission badge down and just create a relationship with your child and focus on being their family member.
[00:33:07] Yeah. I mean you, do you feel like we've done that?
[00:33:11] A hundred percent. Yeah. It's the only way I feel comfortable. Yeah. And I think there was even a time. When I was living with my grandparents that the missionaries came over for me because that's where I was last registered as a member of the church and they left.
[00:33:26] And I remember Gramp turning to me and being like, we didn't call them by the way, like just like I appreciate that they made it clear that like they're not pushing this on me. And it does. Yeah. Just like you wouldn't feel safe if I was constantly like, mom, you really have to try weed. It's great. Like that makes you feel less comfortable.
[00:33:47] Yeah. Or like pushing anti-Mormon stuff at me constantly. Yeah. Right.
[00:33:52] Yeah. I guess that's a little more serious of a example. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:56] Okay, so that brings us to talking about what can we do moving forward and preparing to talk about this. I was looking at what kind of advice there is out there, because I think that, you know, there's a lot of ways that we can go wrong with this and there's a, like, I came across a lot of really bad advice, to be honest, and a lot of things that I'm just like, oh, that would just, and maybe it's good advice for somebody, but it would not have worked in our situation at all.
[00:34:26] No, right. One of those things. There's a guy named Joshua Coleman who wrote a book called, Rules of Estrangement. I didn't actually read the book 'cause I just watched some, um, YouTube videos of interviews with him and mm-hmm. He just really turned me off. But, but he has some good advice, but his motivation behind the advice is really kind of like, faking it. Like he advises people to write letters of reconnection with their kids, but he's just like, you're just gonna have to say they these things, even though you don't think that they're true. Yeah. And I'm like, that's, that's really not great advice at all.
[00:35:07] Yeah.
[00:35:08] You have to at least recognize that you could be wrong here.
[00:35:11] Mm-hmm. And if you're just like, oh, I'm really right, but I'm gonna tell you what you need to hear. Like nobody's gonna like, we map each other way too well. Yeah. And I don't know,maybe it'll work for somebody, but, but I think you have to really be humble and recognize that, okay, you're a human being even if you are doing your best, you still hurt other people sometimes.
[00:35:36] Yeah.
[00:35:38] And recognizing like you're not always right. You're not always good. You know, you can, you can do things wrong too, and taking accountability for that, right? Like that's been, that's been a big thing. And that also, like I was saying earlier, that doesn't mean that you're a terrible person or that everything that you have done is bad, but not everything that you've done is good either.
[00:36:01] And you kind just kind of have to recognize that. I think like on both sides we have to, to recognize. That, you know, maybe we are wrong about some things.
[00:36:13] Yeah.
[00:36:14] And I think that, you know, when that's met with compassion, it's easier to then say more about, yes, I was wrong about this and, and be in a safe space of that.
[00:36:27] Yeah. I, I remember one time I was with my friend who was no contact with her mom and I was talking, we had both talked about our situations a little bit, and you had sent me a reel because you use Instagram reels like an old person. Um, it was about,
[00:36:45] I am an old person,
[00:36:46] how lucky you. But it was about how.
[00:36:52] Uh, moms all the time will say in, in response to a valid criticism of something that they've done. Well, I guess I'm just a bad mom. And you had sent that to us and said, I know that I used to say this and I'm sorry. And it was completely outta the blue. Like we weren't even talking about anything but it was something that had bothered me when I was younger and I was like, oh, that's really, that's nice to receive an apology of That wasn't the right way to respond or recognition. And I showed it to my friend 'cause I was with her at the time and she was like, wow. What's it like to have a parent who apologizes?
[00:37:24] Yeah.
[00:37:26] And yeah, like you said, the humility is important.
[00:37:30] Yeah. Well, and it's interesting too because like we weren't taught that, right? I think. Mm-hmm. Growing up, we were taught that the adult needs to be right all the time. Mm-hmm. We were taught to respect our elders and to always mm-hmm. Treat them as if they were always right.
[00:37:47] And then like this is a Gen X thing, right? We are the transition generation because we were supposed to put our parents' needs first, and then it flipped somehow when we, and now we're supposed to put our children's needs first, which I think is valid. Right? I think that that is how it should be.
[00:38:05] Mm-hmm. That, that we should put our children's needs, needs first. but it's a hard thing to learn, right? Because that's not what was modeled for us.
[00:38:14] Yeah. Well, and even, you know, regardless of whose needs come first, at this point, we're both adults. Mm-hmm. And I think that having a relationship together, just like any other relationship, requires us to respect one another and to be able to apologize when we mess up, which we do plenty of.
[00:38:35] Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's very true. Like it's okay to apologize to your children. That's something I, that I really wish I could share with other parents is that it's okay for you to say that you are wrong. Like it really is it, it's healing for your child, but it's also really healing for you.
[00:38:57] Mm-hmm. To be able to say, you know what, I did this wrong, and it doesn't mean that I'm terrible and it doesn't mean that I'm not a worthwhile person, but I did this wrong and I want to be better.
[00:39:11] Yeah. And on my end when I'm not constantly having to fight to validate like this wrong thing was done to me and this was hurtful, it gives me space to let that go and be able to focus on like all of the ways that you were a really good mom and like let those things come forward because the other stuff is, is validated. It has space to heal and it can be put away.
[00:39:34] So then on the other side of it too. Like, I think as parents, it's a really bad idea to be fake. Yeah. But also there's this idea out there that we have to cut each other off to take care of ourselves. I wanna be clear, like sometimes I think that that is necessary.
[00:39:52] I sometimes think that it's important to take a step back to get in touch with yourself and what you need. And sometimes we can't do that when we're under constant pressure from this other person. But I think that sometimes we take it to an extreme and we're just like, I just have to cut this person out of my life they're a toxic person. And that's not true as often as, as, as it's happening.
[00:40:17] Yeah.
[00:40:18] And I, so I think it's helpful to think about like, what is the least extreme response mm-hmm. That you, that you can still protect yourself.
[00:40:26] Because there's been times, even like recently where something happens that I need space. That I need to heal on my own. Mm-hmm. And I think another thing, you know, in addition to that, to allowing myself to take the space is to also communicate to you. I don't say, Hey mom, I'm cutting you off, but I do say I am not gonna answer your calls for a little bit, or You know, communicate the expectation of I need space for a little bit.
[00:40:56] And I think the first time that happens in a relationship of any kind, it feels really scary and it feels like they're never gonna come back. But I think that when you're setting kind boundaries with someone, after a while there's trust built up. Like, you know, even if it's hard right now, or even if it's tense right now, that will be able to come back together and that once we heal on our own, that we can come back together and have that love and empathy for each other.
[00:41:23] That's been a really important thing for us too, is just setting that expectation that no, we're, we're always gonna come back and we're always gonna keep forgiving each other and keep trying to work on this, right? Mm-hmm. Because even, I mean, because it's painful, even like anytime that we need to take space from each other, right?
[00:41:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:41:46] Because that's the reason we're taking space is because there's been hurt feelings.
[00:41:50] Mm-hmm.
[00:41:51] There's been something that's been uncomfortable or difficult, or we disagree. Just too hard to deal with at the moment.
[00:41:58] Yeah.
[00:41:58] And so it's going to be painful. But setting that expectation of like, we are always gonna come back to this and I am always gonna keep loving you and keep working on this relationship and keep trying to do better and to love you in the way that you need to be loved Yeah. I think that's part of building the relationship.
[00:42:19] It, yeah. It's important to, to take care of yourself and to heal your own stuff. And part of that sometimes is taking boundaries, but when you set a boundary or whatever, that's the work to do is to work on your own heart and your own healing, because it's a lot easier to connect with other people emotionally when we're not feeling defensive and we're not feeling like we have to protect ourselves.
[00:42:47] Mm-hmm.
[00:42:48] Right. And so once we get to where we can heal our, heal ourselves, and, and validate and value ourselves mm-hmm. Then it's a lot easier to, to tolerate somebody else's invalidation, if that makes sense.
[00:43:02] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:03] Right. Like I don't need you to tell me I'm okay if I know I'm okay.
[00:43:09] Mm-hmm. Mm. Right.
[00:43:10] When I know that I'm okay in myself and I've healed my own stuff, mm-hmm. Then, then I can come with not needing something from you, but with something to give to you. With love to offer you. Mm. Yeah. And like that's an ongoing process, right?
[00:43:29] Yeah. Like, like I don't think you ever get to a place where you're just like, oh, nothing can hurt me ever again. Yeah.
[00:43:35] Or I'm healed.
[00:43:36] Yay. Yeah. I'm perfect Like it. But once you learn how to do it, then you get to a place where. Where you know what to do when you're feeling hurt. Mm-hmm. And you know how to find your way, way through it.
[00:43:52] Yeah. And I think too, you know, we discuss what you do on your own right. And how you set boundaries. But also how we come together is with empathy for one another. Like we both know that we're doing this healing process together. We both know that there is hurt there that needs to be healed. Respect, you know?
[00:44:11] Always communicating in a respectful manner and like we were talking about before, like commitment, that we are gonna come back to this together, that we are going to trust one another to bring our best selves as we can and to be able to take the criticism when we're not.
[00:44:28] It, it's, it's nice to say we that we just need to love each other, right?
[00:44:32] Yeah. But I like breaking it down that way, that like, what does loving each other look like? It looks like, like understanding that the other person has feelings like that empathy and understanding that they have their own feelings that might be different than what you expect them to be, might be different than yours.
[00:44:53] And respecting each other's ideas and respecting each other's, right? Mm-hmm. To control our own lives. Yeah. Right.
[00:44:59] Because like the opposite of those three things is defensiveness and control and quitting. Right. Which is our natural human response. Yeah. Right. Like when we're hurt our natural responses to, to, um.
[00:45:14] To defend ourselves to try to control everybody in the situation. Mm-hmm. And then if that doesn't work, I'm out of here.
[00:45:21] Yeah. I'm a runner. Like the minute there's an issue, like I'm out like bye.
[00:45:27] Yeah. But which is not true because we've seen clearly Right. That, I mean, it's in our relationship. Yeah.
[00:45:34] But it's something I have to work with. It's something that I have to
[00:45:37] Right.
[00:45:38] And, and the reality is, like our relationship, there were lots of points where it could have been like that. Where it could have been like, oh yeah, nope. Bye. I'm out. You know? And it wasn't easy, but like we did come together and we did fight against that but I do have to keep recognizing that.
[00:45:55] Yeah. It's, it's not our natural response for sure. And like you said, like one of the things we wanna do is control everyone in this situation. And I do think that there are a lot of parents whose kids are estranged from them or have chosen to cut them off deserved or not.
[00:46:12] And I think, you know, with, with our experience, there are some things that you can do with that frustration of, I wanna control this. I want them to just give me a chance. I want them to like, yeah, come back. And be the prodigal son and all of that. So I just kinda wanted to discuss some things that helped us through that or through estrangement with family members.
[00:46:41] Yeah, 'cause the thing is, is that like you work on healing yourself, but you can't control whether the other person is working on healing themselves. Yeah. Right. And so what do you do if you're the only one working on that? Mm-hmm. I think that like the most important thing is that you just have to have grace for yourself and understand that that's really painful, that it's a painful situation.
[00:47:10] And also grace for the other person that like if they were not suffering, they would not, they would not be rejecting you. Right. Yeah. And just understanding, okay. We're just, we're both human beings. Trying to do the best that we can, but also screwing it up a lot of the time. Yeah. Like we're just imperfect people having an imperfect relationship and there's no other choice.
[00:47:37] Yeah. Yeah. And like you don't have to understand that in order for me to feel that. Yeah. Right. It's nice when you do. Mm-hmm. Like it helps a lot when you do, but If you're angry and not speaking to me. I can see, okay. She's hurting. She's, she needs some time to heal. Yeah. Right. And that brings me relief.
[00:48:01] We can deal with that suffering. Like two, there's two ways to deal with it. One, we can just kind of keep chasing after that person, which is terrible idea and just does not work. Right. Because that, that's trying to control the other person. Mm-hmm. Trying to make them come back. Mm-hmm. but if we can find our own meaning in like allowing that person their own journey, then, that can help with the suffering.
[00:48:25] Yeah. It doesn't completely take it away, but it cleans it up. and then the other thing that you have to do while you're waiting for the other person to heal is. Come back to the relationship is that you have to find joy in your life. You have to not make this relationship the whole focus of your life because that's easy to do.
[00:48:45] Right? Yeah. What is that called? The missing tile syndrome or something like that? I don't know. That's, we always notice the thing that's wrong. Oh. And that's where we're tempted to, to put our focus. Yeah. And so it's really easy to be like, this one doesn't like me right now, and make your whole life about that.
[00:49:08] Mm-hmm. But you have other relationships. You have other good things in your life. You have to focus on those things and find joy in those.
[00:49:17] Yeah.
[00:49:18] And then the bonus part of that is that it also makes you a person that people want in their life. Right? Nobody wants you when you're moping around the whole time.
[00:49:27] Yeah. Or like when you're so focused on what you're missing.
[00:49:31] Yeah.
[00:49:33] I think another thing that helped us is like we've discussed, is just like. Staying committed to respecting boundaries and practicing empathy for one another. I think that it never gets easier to set boundaries or to have boundaries set on you. I guess I shouldn't say it never gets easier like you can have more understanding for it and when you're met with it, know how to deal with it.
[00:49:57] So I think ultimately what we're trying to say is that love is not control, and I think that that's one of the pieces of the puzzle that once we got in place, really helped us, is that I can set my boundaries for myself.
[00:50:10] I can respect the boundaries that are set in this relationship by others, and I can control myself and how I react. But trying to focus on the other person's actions or trying to control those things isn't gonna make me feel better.
[00:50:26] Yeah. Like that is, that is a huge part of, of growing up as a human being is recognizing that the only person that you can control is yourself and showing love to other people is allowing them to be who they are. Even when you disagree with what they're doing or how they're living their life, it still is not loving to other people to try to make them into what you want them to be.
[00:50:52] Yeah.
[00:50:52] That's just loving your image of who they should be.
[00:50:56] Yeah. Um, one last quote that I found that I really loved was actually in a Time-
[00:51:03] Can I just say,
[00:51:03] yeah.
[00:51:04] That I think it's so cute that like you're actually studying the gospel more now,
[00:51:09] now that we're doing this. I know, actually I was gonna say that, sorry, I know we're out of time, but I was gonna say that when I was studying the gospel, when I was trying to decide whether to leave or not being in it more and studying it more made me like really have like a visceral reaction sometimes, but like now coming to it from like a different understanding, I can pick out the good parts and I really do love some of the stuff.
[00:51:35] Not that I loved everything that I pulled, but. It is. Yeah. I am doing I more from than I have for here. Yeah.
[00:51:42] Well, and from my side of it too, like there are things that are said in the scriptures and in conference that I really love and there are things that I'm just like, oh, that's not for me. They're talking to somebody else there.
[00:51:55] That's fair. But I loved, this Time Magazine article that was written in an interview, I think with President Russell Nielsen, and it was, published near the end of his life. So it was published September 5th, 2025, and it's called, we All Deserve Dignity and Respect. He said, "After more than a century of life and decades of studying both the human body and the human soul, I have found this to be true: we are happiest when we remember our divine worth and extend that recognition to others, beginning with our own families." And that speaks true to me because I love, you know, like they use divine nature a lot in the church, but what I take that to mean is that we are each our own beings and we're deserving of love and dignity and respect.
[00:52:43] Yeah. I love that so much and I found that to be absolutely true, that I'm so much happier just enjoying the people that you are.
[00:52:54] Mm-hmm.
[00:52:55] Rather than trying to make you into something.
[00:52:58] It's a lot more fun on both ends of it. Oh, for sure.
[00:53:03] Thanks for talking with me and I love you a lot.
[00:53:07] I love you too. Talk soon.
[00:53:08] Bye.
[00:53:09] Bye-bye.
[00:53:09]