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[00:00:05] Hi, I am Kari. And I'm Kimberly. And this is Coffee and Cocoa. A podcast about reconstructing your family after they've deconstructed their faith. We are a mother and a daughter sharing conversations from both sides of the faith divide.
[00:00:19] Awesome. And what are we here to discuss today? Well, did we wanna start out with testimonies? Oh, yeah. I forgot about testimonies. Yeah. Okay. So. Kimberly had this cute idea to, talk about bearing our testimonies and sharing the things that we believe in and the things that we find happy and good and wonderful about life and sharing them in testimony form.
[00:00:43] because you were saying, when we were talking about it, you were saying that it's funny to explain testimonies to people who are not at the church. Yeah, like it's really unique that like in the church we just have basically an open mic day. Yeah. Um, but also there are a lot of things like, I remember I had a roommate once that was very religious and there were a lot of things throughout her day that she was just like, thank you Jesus.
[00:01:06] Like, she was just like really excited about and there are things that I still get like really excited about, even if I don't assign it to a specific God or anything like that. And it's just fun to be like, yeah, there's lots of good in the world. Yeah. So what's your testimony today? I was thinking, my testimony today is about Apple music becauseyou're too young to remember a time that you either had to listen to it on the radio or you had to buy the cd, right?
[00:01:33] Mm-hmm. The fact that we have music, like any song that I ever want to listen to, I can just pull it up on my little. Or Spotify or whatever other music app that you have, I love that I can just listen to whatever music that I want to listen to.
[00:01:49] And I love that I can make little lists. Like I have a list of songs that just make me feel good and I, and I can love that part, that list anytime just to give myself a little lift. And I love that so much. It makes me happy. Wait, that's so good. I'm doing a thing this year where
[00:02:04] I'm picking a song for each day of the year. So like right now I have my January playlist. My friend Catherine has been doing this for like three years and just like whatever's my ear room that day or whatever, I hear when I'm out and about and I'm like, I love this song. Or like, you know, if I see a TikTok of it, I'm like, yeah, that is a good song.
[00:02:21] I'm making that my song for the day so that by the end of each month I'll have a collection of Just songs that, that reach me throughout the day. So I do love that music's on demand for us. I know. It's so nice. It's so wonderful. Um, I think my testimony about SoulCycle, I just did my SoulCycle class and I have this great instructor, Scott, that like, he, like, I really just buy into the full cult of SoulCycle.
[00:02:48] my boyfriend turned over to me this morning and was like. Are you ready to go to church? And I was like, stop. he makes jokes like that all the time. I was like, we're not gonna church. And he's like, no. And he shows me his SoulCycle app and I'm like, yeah, that kind of has become like my church of like, this is a moment of the day that I'm just gonna focus on myself.
[00:03:04] I'm gonna clear my mind like, and just be present and be working on something that I think is good. And um. Like I said, our SoulCycle instructor that we go to every Sunday is amazing. Mm-hmm. Um, and he just really takes a time throughout it to just like, like he's great on cues, on focusing on yourself and stuff.
[00:03:24] So highly recommend SoulCycle. I know, it's not where you live. But I know, I'm always kind of sad about that because it would be really nice. I am, I'm ready to. Maybe you should move back and start at SoulCycle Cult. I think it would make very much money, and this is true, this is true. Um, but maybe next time it'll come here eventually.
[00:03:47] I'll look forward to that. Yeah, be good. Awesome. All right. So what are we here to talk about today? So today we wanted to talk about what we do believe now because we kind of went over our stories and mm-hmm. How we got to where we're at. but we didn't really talk about, the beliefs that shape our lives now in the here and now.
[00:04:08] Mm-hmm. And so we wanted to talk about that. So I really thought a lot about this this week because, 'cause yeah, I do believe a lot of different things than I used to. Mm-hmm. But, um, I believe that we are children of God.
[00:04:23] I really do believe that, whatever God is, we are of the same thing. because you know, we have agency and we create things in and all of that kind of stuff. But I also believe in the ongoing restoration of the church of Jesus Christ. I believe that we'reconstantly learning our way towards the truth.
[00:04:44] Like what? The absolute truth is And, I also really, really believe in the idea of Zion and building Zion and building communities where we care for each other and take care and care as much about another person as we do ourselves. And I think that that's a cause worth devoting my life to.
[00:05:05] Yeah. I would say, I believe in a lot of the values I grew up with, which I think surprises a lot of people. Growing up, Mormon did bring some value to my life.
[00:05:15] I don't think that I had to grow up Mormon to have those values, but a lot of them I do keep, and I am spiritual. I do believe that there are things that we don't understand fully, yet, and I do think that there is something about being human and having a conscience and there are like lots of. Things that are too much to be coincidences, but I am secular.
[00:05:39] I don't think that there is any church on earth right now that has the full truth or even close to the full truth. And you know, I'm not saying that there can't be a God, but I don't know that it looks like anything that we currently imagine. Interesting. So I think that it's important to talk about.
[00:05:59] Since we just bore our testimonies, something that I had a hard time with in the church was that we stand up in front of each other and always say like, I know, I know that the church is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know that, uh, we are children of God. All of these things that we claim to know, but how do we actually know and how do we come to beliefs and how do we.
[00:06:25] Feel like we know something. So what is that like for you? Yeah. Well, in the church we do, we say we know, and this is what I think that we mean when we say that. I think that we're basing it on our feelings. Like we really, really feel like this is true. That it, mm-hmm. I always use the word resonates, right?
[00:06:44] Like, yeah. Like it feels right to us. Mm-hmm. And then we, we use our own personal experience, right? Mm-hmm. In my story, I talked a lot about how like, it just always worked for me, right? Yeah. And then the other thing is, is that, um, we have faith in what other people say. Like we believe what other people say, but we choose who we wanna believe what they say.
[00:07:09] And so I think that that's what people are really saying when they say, I know because, 'cause it feels like we know. Like that's how our brains work. Right?which is interesting. Yeah. Well, and like no matter, like you said, no matter what we choose to believe or. Choose to know. A lot of time we're putting our faith into different people.
[00:07:30] Like, you know, for example, growing up, I guess still, I've never been to China. I don't know what China looks like. It could be completely fake and I don't wanna go down that rabbit hole because there are people that really struggle with knowing things. Um, but like you are putting your faith in the idea that.
[00:07:51] Other people have visited there and that this does exist and that like, there isn't a lot of reason to make this up and, and like as a kid you're just trusting the adults around you that like certain things exist and mm-hmm. Um, I think that like, as you get older, like for me, like I do subscribe to a lot of institutions, like people who make maps, but that is true and I subscribe to,
[00:08:16] The belief that that science is real and that like there is a lot of value in scientific discovery and in peer reviewed works and things like that. And because of my experiences with things that they have said are true, being true. Mm-hmm. And because of like understanding how we've come to find that truth.
[00:08:38] Mm-hmm. I do believe it is true. Right. And I think that that's such an important thing to acknowledge, right? Because mm-hmm. We, we get to choose who we put our faith in. Mm-hmm. And no matter what you believe you're putting, you're putting faith in something, right? Yeah. So I think it's really important to consciously choose who you're putting your faith in and why you're putting your faith in them.
[00:09:03] Yeah. And evaluate the processes that you come to your faith from, right? Yes. 'cause there are some people who believe that they're right and cause a lot of harm in doing that. And so, yes. I think especially when it comes to. Religious beliefs, we see that it is really important to examine them and examine Yeah.
[00:09:23] What they are causing you to do, right? Yes. And like, to hold that lightly enough to like, okay. this is what I believe, but what is, what does this create in the world? What does it create for other people? And that kind of thing. That's why it's so important for us to have this discussion about like Right. How we come to our beliefs. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it really is because I just, I do think that you have to examine like why you believe what you believe, and that you have to examine what those beliefs create in your life
[00:09:57] and how that affects the people around you and the people in the world. to, and to understand too, like partly the way our brains work, because our brains just do believe that they're right. Mm-hmm. until they get enough evidence.
[00:10:11] To prove that we're wrong and then we just change our minds, and we think we're right again. And so I just think so, yeah. We all suffer from confirmation bias. Yes. To, it's so important to examine our biases and to understand that that is how our brains work. That they will look for the evidence of what we already think.
[00:10:28] Yeah. Our brains will even exclude other evidence to the contrary, which is fascinating and scary. Yeah, and I think we're seeing a lot of that going on right now of like feeling confused about what's a good source and who we can believe and, you know, where are biases controlling our thoughts and, and controlling how we perceive evidence.
[00:10:50] Yeah. I think that it's important though that we do have beliefs, right? Like, I don't think either of us subscribes to nihilism. I think that having shared values is important to how we treat each other, how we treat not just those around us, but like those in like our whole community and our country.
[00:11:11] So I think that while it's important to examine where those beliefs are coming from, like I, I don't think either of us are pushing for nihilism. No, no. And like even that's a choice, right? Yeah. Like, is it possible that none of this means anything? I mean, yeah. Like it's a possibility that exists, but I choose not to believe that because. Like believing that none of this matters doesn't lead me to live a good life for myself or for anybody else around me. Yeah. so not examining what we think we know. Um, sometimes that can cause us to infringe on other people's rights and it can cause a lot of harm to other people, right? If we're not examining how what we know affects other peoplelike there's an idea a lot of times.
[00:11:59] I think in both sides, and I think we talked about it in our stories where it's like, I love you so much that I have to tell you the truth. even if it hurts you. Yeah. And I mean, just bringing it back to our situation and situations where parents and children have disowned each other.
[00:12:17] Mm-hmm. You've personally got pressure to tell usthat. Who we are or what we're doing is wrong. Like Yeah. Specifically when it comes to LGBTQ issues, you've been told, no, you, you can't support this.you know, it is more loving to them to tell them that they are so wrong and to make sure that they aren't living that way or aren't living that way under your roof.
[00:12:38] Yeah. And that's, that's really hard. Yeah, it's hard on, on relationships and it's hard on, particularly like you said in the LGBTQ community because in past generations, and we've thankfully moved away from this a lot, but past generations literally just kicked their children out of the house and cut them off.
[00:12:59] And, um, I think there's been a lot of healing. I know personally, a few families that did that. I think there's been a lot of healing, in later years. Mm-hmm. But, but yeah, just examining that is, is important I think. Yeah. I think, you know, we both talk about making good decisions and how do we, how do we define if it's a good decision or not, or a good belief or not?
[00:13:25] I mean, I really do think it goes back to the whole by their fruits ye shall know them and you have to examine what fruits this is bearing in your life. Mm-hmm. Which is hard. 'cause it kind of goes back to the whole, okay, well this works for me and it works for my life. But, um, I think you have to expand your vision beyond that.
[00:13:44] And is it working? Yeah. Like how's it, what is the effect that this is having in the world? There have been a lot of atrocities that have happened based off of people, um, yielding to somebody else's belief or yielding to somebody else's authority rather than defining their own belief, whether that's like a religious belief, a political belief, like at the end of the day, we're all responsible for.
[00:14:09] What we feel is good and what we feel is important to do and making those value judgements. Yeah. so what are some of the things that you think we disagree on at this point? Because we share a lot of values and we've talked about a lot of things that we share, but what do you think are some things that we disagree on?
[00:14:28] I think primarily we disagree on the church and if it's good and worthy and worth following. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because I like, I do believe. There is a lot of good in the church. I believethat it's done some harm in a lot of ways.
[00:14:46] like there's lots of different things that we could talk about, but the queer community right now mm-hmm. Is, is the hardest one, right? Well, at least it's the one that touches my life the most. I, I'm sure that there are other people that have other issues that are more pressing, but, I think that in the church we have to keep looking at those things.
[00:15:07] because I think we have to keep trying to discern what is good and what is good in our relationships with other people, and what's gonna bear good fruit and
[00:15:17] what the best thing for people is. And so for me, I just. Believe in the church as a group of people pushing towards doing better all the time and learning more all the time. And that's not true of every member of the church,
[00:15:32] but I do think that it's worth working towards as a community. Yeah. And you choose not to. I, for me, that was my precipice for leaving is I felt like being a part of the church was holding me back from doing good. Like I felt like it wasn't something I wanted to represent anymore. I do think that organized religion in general has been like, I don't wanna take credit away.
[00:15:56] I think that organized religion has. Helped a lot of people. I think it had led to a lot of good in the world for sure. I just think that that can exist outside of organized religion and I wish we had a different option. Like I think of like addicts who have used religion as like the thing that makes 'em eventually break their addiction or the way that it can bring families together or communities together or, um, the way that there's a huge push in a lot of religions to,
[00:16:23] Give humanitarian aid, like all those things are good. I just think that they can exist without, the religion. And I think that also the religion has caused so much bad. Like the Mormon church in particular, like I obviously have beef with like we're not cool. I can think of so many things that.
[00:16:41] Should change immediately that, that aren't good. the way that children have been preyed on the way that they have treated so many different groups of people throughout time and just the way that,even on a personal level, they made me feel like, I just don't feel like it brings the best out in me.
[00:16:59] And I feel like a lot of the good things that I did learn through the church, I could learn without the church and I can carry in my life without the church. Yeah. Like I've stopped going to church, but I haven't stopped volunteering or being kind to other people or Right, Anything like that. And I do wish thatthere was something, like every Sunday we meet together and discuss like, here's some core values and how are we living those values?
[00:17:22] And what are things that are helping you, Like, I, I would love that without the religion of it all. Yeah. And I can see that. I think that for me, the community is really important.
[00:17:34] and I know we've talked before about like you wish that, that there was more of a community. and I do think that there are pros and cons to any community you have. Like any like group I've been a part of outside of the church,It brings community in and that there are people there to help you and to talk to and to feel like you're not alone.
[00:17:54] But there's also all the pettiness and all the fighting and all the hurt feelings. which I don't think is worth tossing out any group altogether. I think that the way that the church is structured leans into the negative a little bit too much into the judging each other and into, sometimes the feeling of loneliness or feeling like you're not good enough. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:18:18] Yeah. And I think that that's been part of why it's been so important to me to stay in the church is because I do think that the only way that the church or any community, because I don't think the church is exempt from any of the human problems, right? It just has been important to me to stay in the church, to kind of break up the group, think a little bit mm-hmm. Because I think that that is one of the biggest problems that we have in any community is that, like we were talking about earlier, that that group think that confirmation bias with everybody around me thinks the same thing,
[00:18:52] I think that that's poison to any group. And so for me it's been important, if somebody is LGBTQ and comes to church, I want to be a person that they can feel safe with, that they can feel not alone with and you know, I can't control what the church, teaches about it or anything like that.
[00:19:12] But I feel like I do want to be a person that, that makes 'em feel welcome and makes 'em feel loved. So that's been an important thing to me to be, to stay in the church.
[00:19:25] Well let me ask you this, because sometimes I look at you and I don't get why you're still part of the church. Honestly, like I know that it is something dear to you. I know that you love it, it, but sometimes I worry that you are ostracized because you have six kids that have left the church. So do you feel like you've had that, like do you feel like there have been people in the community that have made you feel less alone in that?
[00:19:50] Um, yes and no, Like, because, there are definitely some hard times, some hard things about that. Mm-hmm. Right? But also. I think that, that I have had people in the church who have reached out to me and, um, and, you know, just loved me in spite of things that are different and helped me to feel, um, I mean, I would say helped me to feel Heavenly Father's love for me.
[00:20:20] And so, um, that's been very important to me. I feel like even hearing you now though is like hard, like, because you're like, love me in spite of, and I wanna be like In spite of what? In spite of what? Like you didn't do anything.
[00:20:33] Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um, and so that like, it's just, it's difficult for me to understand. That's interesting that you point that pointed out that waybecause I feel the same way too, right? When people are like, oh, I'm so sorry. Your kids are all have left the church. And I'm like, it's fine. They're fine. our family is fine. We love each other. We, we have a great time together.
[00:20:58] Um, yeah, I guess just it's been my human condition and I don't know, uh, like I've observed it in a lot of other people, but I'm sure it's mm-hmm. I don't know that it's universal or anything, but that I always feel like not quite good enough. Right. Like, I always feel flawed. Mm-hmm. Or, I do think that all humans need to feel accepted and loved.
[00:21:18] Mm-hmm. Right. And. the church has been an important place for me to both feel that and also share that with other people Yeah, does it make you feel less accepted and loved that I continue to go to church or.
[00:21:33] No, it doesn't affect me. I, but I do worry about you and dad. Like, that was a consideration to me when I left, is like, yeah. That it's gonna be hard on you guys like, and that like Yeah. You know, you've done so much in your community to be well-rounded, respected, to be involved. Um, and the idea that like, despite all of that, you'd be judged because mm-hmm.
[00:22:00] You don't have kids that went on missions or got married in the temple or have babies in the church. Yeah. I mean, I guess that that's, that's part of it for me is that I want to stay to make people space for other people. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think that's noble. I, I wouldn't do that, but that's okay.
[00:22:20] I think. Yeah. I mean like that's the point, right? Is that we have these differences and disagreements. Yeah. I think another thing that we disagree on is the existence of God, like we said in at the top. I think that for me. There's so many people that have believed in so many different gods.
[00:22:38] And I think even like if we look at like the history of like the Christian God and like, you know, like you can even get into the fact of like, is this a Trinity or not? Because Mormons famously don't believe in the Trinity. They believe in three separate entities of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
[00:22:56] but like if you look at the history of like the Christian Catholic God, like. Yahweh back in Canaan Times, right? Like who wasn't even their only God and wasn't even like their father God. And like, you know, you look at North mythology or Greek mythology, you look at, Eastern. religions that, like, I'm not even as well versed in that, like have truly believed in their God.
[00:23:19] I think that there are a lot of creation myths and a lot of, ways that people have made sense of the world. Mm-hmm. And while I think that there is some sense of like. Something about humans that makes us different. Um, I don't necessarily think that that is a God that we are derived from, and I don't necessarily even believe in one God.
[00:23:39] like I think that a lot of times when I am discussing this, like I stay generally like the universe, right? Mm-hmm. And I do think that there is something that like connects us and something that pushes us and drives us to continue on and, and be more than just. Uh, animals that survive, but I don't necessarily believe that that is a God, and I definitely don't believe that like there's any possible way that the Mormons are the only ones that have that Right.
[00:24:04] Or that are the, like the one that I grew up in is the right God. Like, you know. Yeah. I think that's interesting that you say because, because to me it's like the idea of there is a great mystery, right? Mm-hmm. We don't understand, we don't even understand what consciousness is, right?
[00:24:24] Yeah. So there is a great mystery and all of these, these gods have just been humans, Telling their best story about what they think about that, right? Yes. Yes. And have you ever heard like the idea of different fingers pointing to the same moon,
[00:24:42] I just think that it's all. like we're all kind of giving our best idea of what is even happening here. Like why mm-hmm. There is something rather than nothing, right? Mm-hmm. Why existence even is. Mm-hmm. And so I don't think that the LDS church knows everything about God.
[00:25:01] Mm-hmm. But I do resonate most with the description of God as heavenly parents. And I also think it's funny that we try to say that we only believe in one God because like we absolutely believe in multiple gods, right? If we, we believe that we're children of God, then we believe that there have to be many gods.
[00:25:24] We don't even, I don think every religion believes that, but Mormons do. Yeah. Mormons, yeah. Explicitly believe in. Heavenly Mothers. Yes. , But we do believe. That we are the same kind of being as God, that we are literal offsprings of God.
[00:25:41] And that makes a lot of sense to me, right? Because we're creators.we do the same things in our own lives that God does in the world. We create relationships and we we build things. We make things we. try to make things better and, so that version of God is the God that makes sense to me.
[00:26:01] God as a father, and that's right. And mother who care about their children. Yeah. Well, and you know from what you've said, like it seems like you believe like we're created in their image, not just like in the literal sense of like, you look like God, but like in the like idea of our will and our consciousness is similar in nature.
[00:26:22] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And the idea that we are growing to become like them. that, that's the point of this existence is to learn to love as they love and create as they create and help as they help. Right? Like that's, that's what makes sense to me about God, about the, about the great mystery, whatever it is that we, yeah, we call.
[00:26:47] That's fair. And so then that leads to another one that we disagree on, which is the idea of prophets, because you have some real strong ideas about prophets, but I really like the idea that God communicates to his children. Like I, I like that idea. Now There's some problems with that, right?
[00:27:10] Mm-hmm. There's some big problems with that because just like we were talking about earlier, we have to be carefulabout who we, put our faith in, and who we follow. Mm-hmm. And so as far as that goes, I think blind faith in prophets and believing everything that a prophet says is really dangerous and.
[00:27:29] is problematic in a lot of ways, but I do like the idea of God communicating with their children. Yeah. I think on my end I find the likelihood that if there was a God, that his mouthpiece on Earth would be a wealthy white man, very low. Like I really, 'cause you I'm willing to say, I do not know what created us as a conscious being from.
[00:27:57] You know, the animals that we evolve from, right? Like, the thing that makes me hesitant on being completely atheist is like what I studied in my anthropology class, which was that there is a gap in time where, you know, not due to tool usage or brain size or community size, humans made a jump to what we would call consciousness
[00:28:17] Like. Creating music and creating, relationships that aren't just based on survival and things like that, that separate us from, you know, what we build versus like a beaver building a dam or monkeys that also use tools to get food.so that doesn't make me believe in something if that were to be a God.
[00:28:35] I think that, that God would love us all equally enough to give us. Equal revelation that as we sought that revelation like that is something that I do think if there is a God that the Mormon church is right on, and that like we each can receive revelation, that we can personally receive dealings of what's right and wrong and what's truth and not, um, and that as we meditate, or like Mormons would say, prayas we sit with that, the, we can be directed.
[00:29:06] In the right path and that like that divine inspiration is available to all of us. I just really don't subscribe to the belief that like, he'd pick one person and say Leadbecause Mormons or, or the LDS church, like one of their lines is well. The prophets are imperfect men, so of course they're not always gonna get it right.
[00:29:26] And I'm like, yeah, but if we have a perfect God, he would know that. And he wouldn't put one soul imperfect man. in charge of everything and give them that much power and I don't think that it would just be a man. I do think that, he would understand that the woman need leadership that is not so low below the Quorum of the 12 Apostles
[00:29:45] Mm-hmm. I, I, I don't think that it would come that way. I, love the idea of multiple writings of like, where do we connect on where have people from different parts of the world, from different ages have come to the same inspiration? That speaks truth to me more so than like the prophet saying, actually, it's cool for you to have two piercings now, like, you know?
[00:30:09] Yeah. I think I subscribed a lot when I was growing up to the idea of like, yeah, he came to a 14-year-old boy, because of course he would come to the humble and the meek. Mm-hmm. But that 14-year-old boy grew up to do a lot of bad things with that. And I just think that mm, God wouldn't let that happen.
[00:30:28] Yeah. Or wouldn't choose that person as his soul mouthpiece. I appreciate in the church that we are taught to seek.
[00:30:37] personal revelation, it's hard because, because that's like one of those contrary things, right? Because in the church, if your personal revelation disagrees with what the prophet says, then you're just wrong. Right? Try again. Yeah. Let's try again.
[00:30:52] Pray until you get that. And so, so that, that is challenging, right? Like I do think that that's one of those imperfect things. that we're continuing to work towards. but yeah, like just the idea that God does try to communicate and I think that that's kind of what all of the different religions point to, right?
[00:31:12] Like, Mohammad had this experience with God, and let's look and see like what we can learn from that. Mm-hmm. The Catholic Church believes that they have different experiences with God, and I think, I think that it's valuable to look at all of those things and to seek your own inspiration and revelation about all of those things.
[00:31:32] Mm-hmm. So anyways, I'm sure there's other things that we disagree on and there are so many things that we do agree on because we have a lot of. Shared values and shared. Yeah. And I think the biggest one is just trying to lead loving lives, right?
[00:31:49] Yeah. Yeah. For each other and for the people around us and make the world a better place. And I thinklike, ultimately, to me, any God that is worth worshiping, that's what they care about most, right? Mm-hmm. Like whether we got their name correct. Or any specific doctrine. Correct. I think the most important thing to any God worth worshiping has to be how we treat each other.
[00:32:15] Mm-hmm. I agree with that. Yeah. Well, I'll let you go, but I love you so much and I love talking about this with you. I love you so much. Thank you for having these talks with me because it's just, it's so fun. Like I'm learning a lot as I talk to you too, so love.
[00:32:36]