E3: Kari's Story

Season #1 June 17, 2026

Content note: This episode contains references to suicidal thoughts. Please take care of yourself as you listen.

Last week, Kimberly told her story. This week, it's Kari's turn.

Kari grew up immersed in the LDS (then "Mormon") church and culture with pioneer ancestors, temple sealings, road shows, ward dinners... Her faith was so woven into her life that questioning it never crossed her mind. She married young, had six children, and built what looked, from the outside, exactly like the Mormon dream.

And then her oldest child left the church and barely spoke to the family for the next few years.

In this episode, Kari shares how that broke her. She discusses the grief that went to her bones, the depression she had carried for years but never named, and the moment she found herself weighing whether her children would be better off without her. She talks about what it took to find her way back and the changes she had to make along the way.

This episode explains why Kari does the work she does, and why it's so important to her to help LDS mothers who are suffering in silence to know that they are not alone, and that there is a way to hold onto their faith AND their children who have left the church.

Episode Transcript

Hi, I'm Kari.. And I'm Kimberly. And this is Coffee and Cocoa. A conversation about how to reconstruct your family when they've deconstructed their faith. We're a mother and a daughter having questions from both sides of the faith divide.

Awesome. So today you get to tell your story because the last week I was in the hot seat and it was emotional and I am really just clenching for this week.

I didn't think I would be as nervous as I am to tell my side of the story, but I do have to say, because I was listening through, through what we recorded last week, I'm gonna already get emotional, but I was just so appreciative.

You were so gracious and so kind it was good to hear your story and I thought a lot about it this week and I really appreciated that. you put an effort in to point out like good things as well as the hard things.

Yeah.

And I wanted to say thank you for that.

Because, you could have been a lot harsher, I think with some of the things that happened And so, just kind of thinking back this week over like where I was emotionally at that time. but I don't wanna start there.

I wanna start just at the beginning so I can kind of give a history but just like my background in the church because, I was raised in the church and my parents were both raised in the church and their parents were all raised in the church and, back and back into the pioneer era and they crossed the ocean, to come and join the Saints in Utah.

Most of them are from Denmark and England and that kind of thing. But, yeah,We've been in the church since the beginning, basically. And my grandma's grandma, her grandmother knew Brigham Young personally. So I mean that's very close, right?

I actually didn't know that. Didn't you know that? Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

That's cool.

So I know kind of weird. She wasn't married to him, but she knew him.

She got away. Um, so both of my grandpas served in the military and I always knew- one of them served in the Army and one of them served in the Navy and I knew that they weren't Super Orthodox Mormons during the time that they were in the military.

I just always knew that they drank and smoked and my grandpa quit smoking because my mom, when she was like four or something, asked him to quit smoking, so he did. So that's another family story. But hadn't been leaders of the church all of that time, but they'd always been part of the church.

And also, I always knew about polygamy because I had ancestors that were polygamists. and we had talked about that, I know a lot of people when they find out about polygamy or whatever, that's a big thing. And that kind of freaks them out and, but that wasn't the deal.

Like I never liked it, but I did always know about it. Anyways,

I was sealed in the temple to my parents when I was six, and I remember that experience really well. and so our whole life was just centered around the church, And especially in the eighties when I was growing up, the late seventies and eighties,

we did a lot with the church, but it seems like our whole lives were just like, every memory that I have is something with the church. We-

That was like a really like golden era, especially like, I think it was a golden era forRepublican, evangelical white people in general, but like, probably, but like that, that was back when they used to do like shows as a church, right?

oh yeah. We did road shows as teenagers and that was so much fun. seriously, so much fun. I'm sad that we don't do those anymore because they were a ton of fun. And then we had ward dinners every single month. Every month. And because my parents both served in the church, each organization would have a ward dinner that they were in charge of. so usually we were part of helping plan the ward dinners and all of that kind of stuff, but yeah, life just revolved around the church really. And then because both sets of grandparents had moved from Utah to Nevada when they had young families and they raised their families in southern Nevada, and then, all of their kids stayed close by, so all of my aunts and uncles and cousins from both sides of the family lived very close and we got together constantly. we got together for every birthday, we got together for every holiday. Any show that I ever did or game that my brothers ever played in, we had a huge cheering section because everybody was there. And it was really fun. It was really fun. And I was always kind of sad that we didn't have that as much for you guys. Because we lived further away from our family.

When we lived in Vegas that was so nice. Like, I have really good memories of being at Grandma Great's house with everyone. So I can only imagine being in high school and still having that going on.

And I was like the, um, the oldest of the grandchildren too, So, I just had babies around all the time and was always playing with the younger cousins and babysitting and that was always fun. I just really enjoyed that and. I still love all of them and we're not as close as we were, but we are still are fairly close, you know?

Yeah.

And everybody was active in the church. Right?

We all like baptisms and, and every baby blessing, and we were always there for all of that, so. Um, and my grandma was, very strong in the church. She really, really, really had a strong testimony of Jesus Christ and really, put a lot of effort into being a Christ-like person. Right. and just was a very loving, giving kind person and accepting too, she was just Always. She was just always a person that you just felt loved when you were around her.

You remember her fairly well, right?

I remember her so well, and I have so many good memories of her.

And I still miss her. I still talk to her sometimes.

so yeah, and she was a big influence in my life. My grandma was, and she had been through some pretty tough stuff.

even though she had been raised in the church, her mother had died when she was young and so she'd been through a lot of trials and it was very important to her to raise her, her family in the church. anyways, so I don't really remember ever questioning that the church was true, growing up.

Like it was just all around me. And, you know, I remember sometimes kids at school would say something about it, but it just never kind of penetrated anything I just knew that the church was true.

And you had a lot of, people you went to school with that were Mormon too?

Yeah. Oh yeah.

People don't think of Nevada like the same level as Utah and it's not, but Vegas has a huge Mormon population.

Oh yeah. and Henderson was more separate from Vegas at that time, but still, Henderson had a huge Mormon population, a lot of LDS people. And so it wasn't like Utah. I always thought of Utah as like the good kids and the bad kids were Mormon. Right. I don't know.

No, that's true. It wasn't like the mission field either. I mean, like any place that the church was not. it wasn't like I was the only Mormon at my school or anything like that.

so we had a good mix of, LDS and non LDS, but I had a lot of friends that were in the church, but I do remember, like, so this was in fifth grade, right? But I remember, um, a friend of mine, we were going to some kind of a camp and, she was kind of making fun of like, oh, religious people don't believe in evolution or, you know, you just believe that everything--

and I remember talking to her about it. like, no, we, I believe in evolution. I don't remember ever not believing in evolution, we believe in evolution. We just believe that like, God orchestrated that, like that was the way that God created the world was through natural things.

Did you believe that in the eighties?

Oh, I totally did. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Good.

I'm not sure if that was something that my parents taught me but yeah. But, I remember having this conversation with her in fifth grade, and so I think I was just like, I mean, we'll talk later more about like stages of faith development, but that would be a very stage three, point of development where it wasn't just absorbing everything at that point, it was me defending it myself and making sense of it, like using my logic and making sense of it in my own mind . Right? And that's the thing the church just always made sense to me. I didn't see a conflict between religion and science.

It just seemed like, God was using natural laws even I imagined, like Jesus walking on water had to be some manipulation of natural law. Right? Because, I mean, we fly and we don't defy natural law to fly. Anyway, so there wasn't like a conflict there to me it just made sense. And most of what I saw in the church was truly good. It was a good way to live. It was good for my family. And looking back now, I can see the privilege, right? I can see that it was definitely, you know, we were a white middle class family that, the church was kind of made for us.

And you are well cushioned and well loved in your community.

Yes.

And every good guy in your life, like every good person that of course you'd look up to and believe was religious, was in the church. Like all of these people that love you and are good people.

Yeah.

So why would you question that at that time?

Yeah. so I did, I mean, I mentioned that I did know about polygamy always, but that was one of those things that I put on the shelf. And I would've said, I would've told you that I was putting it on the shelf because it's like, I don't understand this now, but if it ever comes to it that I am asked to live this way, then I will figure it out, right?

Like We always used to say that, there would be a feeling that would come with it, that would make it okay. That we would feel better about it. which I think is weird. Now, thinking about-

but I assumed that I would pray about it and get a confirmation, right? Because there are stories of the girls that lived it that, you know, they prayed about it and then they felt all right about it, and then they went ahead and married into it.

And also I had ancestors that lived it, that defended it vigorously. Like, You can read letters from LDS women who were living it at the time that were in defense of it. So there was all that. But the first time I remember ever encountering anything like overtly anti-Mormon was, we went to the Manti Pageant when I was, probably 14 or 15 and there were a lot of protesters there, and I was like, oh, that's interesting, right? That was just very interesting to me.Like they just don't understand like what's going on there and that kind of thing. And, and they had like little leaflets and stuff and our leaders were like, no, don't take their literature, but I totally gathered it all up.

You did?

I totally did. Yeah. I don't remember reading it. I mean, I'm sure that I did read it, but I don't rememberspecifically what it said. I'm sure it was some history stuff and that kind of thing. And I don't know. I don't know if I thought that they were making it up or what, but

I had a couple of friends that kind of went toe to toe with them and were like arguing with them and I'm like, okay. You go for it, you know?

Yeah. This is pre-Google, so I feel like-

Right.

That's even harder to confirm.

You just have the sources that you believe.

Yeah, so I'm sure that I read it, I don't, I just must not have believed it or must have just thought it was misinterpreted or that, you know. I just kind of tossed it to the side. But I did, think it was interesting that like all of our leaders and then later, my dad was just like, don't read that stuff. Don't read it. Because I remember thinking, okay, if this really is the truth, it shouldn't matter what you read, right?

Yeah.

It should just stand up to that. so I remember thinking that in my teenage years, there shouldn't be something that I could read that would totally, make me not believe anymore.

This is why you had kids that left. It's all piecing together because I think we all felt that-

It's my fault

same thing too. No, but I think that even from the general authorities there is talk about, not researching certain topics or not, inviting certain sources into your life that that's inviting a bad influence.

But I don't think that you ever told us not to read stuff that was bad or like that was anti-Mormon. And I think that you did raise us with like a, this is the true church and it makes sense because X, Y, Z thing. Like I think that you were always. Prepared for those arguments against the church. And I think that we also felt the same way. We just, it didn't stand up the same way for us.

Yeah.

Sorry.

No, that's, that's interesting. Yeah. I don't think I tried to shelter you from anti-Mormon things just because I just didn't think that there was any influence that could prove the church was not true. it just always really worked for me well. All growing up. There just never was a reason for me to question it or anything like that. and so, like, I just assumed it always would.

Right? even like when I went to, school and I went to school in Utah, of course, so there were a lot of LDS people there and a lot of people like bashed on Las Vegas, which just made me so mad because oh, I had a lady one time that was told me, she's like, whenever we go to Disneyland, we stop in St. George and then we don't stop again until we get all the way to California. I'm like, okay, that is so dumb. There's a temple in Las Vegas.That is so dumb. I don't know. That just always made me so mad.

And it was originally settled by Mormons, so-

It was, yeah. And then the mob took over,

One and the same.

But no, it's a good place. Vegas is a good place

So the people around me weren't perfect. Right? Like, I remember there being like young women's leaders that I didn't get along with or,people that were rude in the church. But that was easy for me to chalk up to, like just being human, And that never was something that I blamed on the church. It was just. You know, okay. We're just all learning and we're not perfect yet. And that's fine. And then the other thing about itwas that I always wanted to be a wife and a mother. and I was not a dumb kid or anything like that. Like I was an intelligent person, but that was just what I wanted to do with my life was be a wife and a mother and I wanted to have kids. And, so I didn't havebig career aspirations or anything like that. My grandma was a teacher and my mom was a teacher. And so when I went away to school, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be a teacher because that's the closest degree to being a mother, and,

so I went to schooland I was working towards my elementary education degree.

Yeah, your MRS degree.

It's just the truth, right? I really was working on my MRS degree for sure. I even put that in my notes because I-

did you?

and I wouldn't have said that at the time, for sure I would've been like, oh no, of course I'm here to get my education.but also me and my roommates like cut up bridal magazines and put them all over a whole wall of our apartment.

Yeah, you were an overachiever because you did get the best one as your husband.

I did. A hundred percent I did.

Congrats. Graduated.

But it didn't happen like as fast as I thought it would. Which is funny because he proposed on my 20th birthday.

You got engaged on your 20th birthday.

Yeah, this is true. I know.

You're like, ugh. And I really thought and a half. Well because I went to college at 17 and a half.

And I'd been through like two whole years of college and was not engaged yet. And I really thought I was an old maid. I know, I know. It's so disturbing.

I love you so much and I'm so happy you married Dad, but oh my gosh. Did you think you would have a daughter that would be 28 and single?

No, I didn't,but I wouldn't trade it. Right? Like I wouldn't change that. It just is, yeah. It's just funny to think, right?

Yeah.

Well,in my defense, my mom was 19 when I was born and my grandma was 18 when she was born. So, These were my examples. Yeah. okay, so I did go to get my MRS degree, but then, like that first year of college, I just experimented a little bit with not going to church.

actually what happened was I was involved in a play andwe would practice till really late on Saturday and church started really early and so I kind of fell off of going to church for a little while and then I kind of like experimented with some things and it just was like my first steps outside of the church that I'd ever taken and it just was not a good experience. Like altogether, it was not a good experience. I had some traumatic things happen that were, you know, it was just a tough time.

And I still don't think that I ever doubted at that time that the church was true

It was just whether or not I was gonna live my life that way. and yeah, it wasn't a great year. And so then the next year, like over the summer, I went to my bishop and I repented and I'm just like gung-ho church again. And then I met your dad and we got married and, and he was the family home evening dad.

And I was the family home evening mom. So it was absolutely an arranged marriage. That's just how it went.

You guys didn't date right when you were Family Home Evening mom and dad though, right?

We did. well, we didn't start dating until it was about four months after we met and we were just like really good friends, which was awesome.

I loved that, because we were working together because we had to plan activities every week for our family home evening group. So we were working together and talking to each other all the time, and we just got to be really good friends. But my roommate had a huge crush on him, and so it was kind of like, he was a little bit off limits, but, um-

The plot thickens. Like now you get to yearn.

I guess. But, um. we met in January and we started dating in April. And then we went home for the summer and, and wrote letters. We wrote letters. It was very sweet.

So sappy.

It was, it was really sappy and sweet and fun.

It is sweet. It is so cute. And I love that you guys are still best friends, like-

Yeah.

it's been a good marriage and I do love him anyway, so we got married a year and a half after we met, which was a really long time.

It's because you had that whole summer in between.

Probably. so we had the summer and then we went back to school and were dating again, and then we got engaged in December and then we'd set the wedding date for June and moved it up to April because I wanted to be married. And that's all we need to say about that.

Uhhuh.

Because you guys wanted to keep the rules.

We wanted to go to the temple. Yes. So.

And you did.

And we did anyways. So then the summer after we got married, I just remember having this conversation with Dad where it's like, you know, if we wait until we can afford to have children, it'll be like 20 years,and so you know what, we might as well just go ahead and start trying to have kids now. And so, our firstborn was born 12 days after our first anniversary. We just dove right in and had the babies. And then you were born 20 months later and every two years we had another kid basically for the next 12 years or 11 years.

11 years between, no, 11 years. Oh my gosh. Mom.

I was pregnant for 11 years of my life.

I think you had like five kids by the time you were my age, right? No. Four.

I had three. Yeah. Four by the time I was your age.

I can't imagine that.

Isn't that wild?

Yeah.

It was a different time though. It was a really different time.

I know.

And that's the thing, we never really thought about, if we could afford that many kids. Right. That wasn't something that was on the radar. because Dad was going to school and he was gonna get a good job and, we would figure it out.

And we never really considered If we can emotionally handle it, or, you know, it wasn't ever like a question of whether or not we should have six kids. It was just like, okay, let's-

And I think that's fair. Like when I contextualize this for people, when I tell themhow big my family is, I'm like, well, my mom grew up with three siblings and my dad grew up with eight siblings and when you look around, you're like, yeah, this is fine. you don't question it.

Well, and not only that, but Dad grew up pretty poorand they had nine kids and they still grew up to be very good people, contributing members of society. You know, there were hard things about it, but we weren't gonna be as poor as that and,

And they still had like happiness, sowhy would you question-

They were happy and successful and Yeah. And that was just what we did. And also we made the cutest babies in the world.

Yeah. Like I said, cute. Cute. Like, that's for sure.

Oh my gosh, so cute.

I'm sorry. They were just beautiful babies. All of you and little kids. I mean, still beautiful people.

Thank you.

So, yeah, it was very much a, we trust in God, like this is the right thing to do, to have children and to build our family and we trust that Heavenly Father will help everything to work out. And that was, just what we believed and what we lived for.

And there were, I mean, so once, when we were at school, like, because Dad had gone back to school, to get his PT degree when,we had quite a few kids at the time and,

I had not finished my degree because I got pregnant so he was going to school at BYU and working as much as he could. And there was a time that we kind of fell off of our tithing and we're not paying it very well. And that was the only time in our whole married life that we ever had to ask for church assistance.

And so, after that it was just like, nope, we pay our tithing always. and you know, that is another thing I really appreciate about the church is that, like, we went to Bishop and said, look,we don't have enough to cover things this month. And theygot us food and I think they helped us with a little bit of our rent.

And it might've, it might've been two months, but I think it was only one. And then. I mean, he worked his butt off and supported us while he was going through school.we felt very blessed at that time, you know, that we were able to do that and that I was able to stay home and take care of you guys,.because childcare, if I had gone to work would've been ridiculous. would've been much more than I would've made at that time. Because we had, at that point, we had three of you, I think I was pregnant with our fourth.

And again, looking back on it. We definitely had a lot of privilege. Right? Like Everybody in the community just loved us and thought that you guys were adorable. And here we were just, you know, living the Mormon dream and doing the right thing. And we had, this beautiful little family and it just like, like it just worked for us.

And you had a good social, had cushion. Yeah.

Yeah, it absolutely, like we were right there in the middle of how this is supposed to work. And, yeah, there just wasn't any reason ever for me to question it. And it was really easy, for me at that point to be, um. With anybody else that had problems?

It was not like you didn't ever see anybody that had struggles or problems or anything, but it was just easy at that point to be like, well, if you would just live the commandments, better then, we're just setting a good example of living the commandments and that's how you live a happy and easy life.

And that was my experience. I just didn't have any other experience to compare that to.

Well, I don't even think you'd say it was an easy life. I think that there were still struggles, but from a privileged perspective, you're like, well, we're handling our struggles, and the church helps us through our struggles.

Yeah. And that's a good point because it,

it wasn't like everything was just smooth and easy. Dad really worked hard. He worked very hard at it and, being a mom was, was challenging at times and tiring and that kind stuff. Especially like 24. Yeah. but yeah, it was just like everything worked for us.

So Dad graduated and we moved back to Vegas and went to school for a while and then we moved to Elko and like all of this time we're just have all of these cute little kids and

we moved into a great ward and found a lot of friends here and everything just worked really well.

And, a few years after we moved to Elko, they made Dad the Bishop and um,

yeah.

And that was like at the time. it felt like God's stamp of approval on our family, right? And I don't even know how else to put that, but it felt like a huge blessing, like a reward for our righteousness or whatever. And I wouldn't have said that at the time,

I would've been much more humble about it. But I know that for me, it felt like we had arrived, like this was, you know? Like, we must be doing something right if Dad, and by extension our family is being called to serve in this way.

Exactly. Like, okay, we're doing it right.

God is proud of us, God is pleased with us, kind of thing. and yet, so this is where I wanna go back and, and talk about, like, I had always suffered from depression, through my teenage years and all through college and all through my young motherhood, I'd always dealt with depression and with bouts of suicidal ideation, from the time that I was in high school.

I don't remember any attempts and I would remember, but I never attempted it, but I did write a lot of letters. I did write suicide letters from time to time, which

Nobody talked about that at the time, right? So I kind of assumed that it was maybe normal, that like everybody felt that way from time to time.

So yeah, so I had just had always dealt with that. and, like, I just put a lot of pressure on myself, to like be a perfect mom and to be happy, Because That was the scripture that I beat myself up with was Wickedness never was happiness. and so if I wasn't happy, then I must be doing something wrong. I must be wicked. Right? and when you ask yourself what am I doing wrong? Like, you can find a hundred thousand things right? Like, particularly in the church, I don't know.

Kari. I've never had experience outside of the church, but, like, I wasn't doing my genealogy, I wasn't going to the temple enough. I wasn't reading the scriptures enough, all of those things that I could find that I wasn't doing and, I just felt like if

if I could do, if I could be good enough, then God would make me happy and God would bless me. And I think that that was, like the vending machine God kind of thing. Like if I, yeah, if I do all of these things then I will get all of these blessings kind of thing.

And what you're saying makes sense too, of like when you're sad in a depression way, where like you don't have a root cause that's evident. You're like, oh, it's because I didn't go to the temple, there's this extra layer of things that you're like, my soul's not in alignment.

Like that's where this is coming from. Let me fix it. So, um, I mean then with Dad being bishop and me still dealing with this and having these super high expectations for myself. that definitely bled into having super high expectations for my kids,

And I was so afraid of you guys getting into trouble, of you leaving the church, of you, doing something wrong and somebody would see you doing something wrong. I was so afraid of that. And when I say afraid, I'm I can remember my stomach literally clenching if you came downstairs in shorts that were too short, right?

And especially I think especially around modesty, that was a huge one for me because everybody could see you and everybody would be like, why isn't her mother making her dress right? it was a physical fear reaction. I don't even know how to emphasize that.

Weirdly, I thought it was the spirit telling me that this is what I needed to do. Was to teach you to dress modestly. And I'm sure that that's triggering from where you came from. Right. Because it was really like, this is us having this conversation because

Yeah. I think from where I am now, I can have compassion that, like I don't have kids, so I don't know the anxiety around feeling like you have to care for them in a certain way. But I do think that the added pressure of like, what if I don't teach my kid this? Or what if I'm not doing right by them or other people see my kid and judge them because of this thing that I should have just told them, you know?

Yes. And I remember saying things like that to you. do you remember, the specific one I remember was like the, honor Society induction, and we looked all over to find you address that would cover your shoulders. And I think the shrug thing was huge right then because

We got a shrug, like every dress that you owned, we had to find you had a whole collection of shrugs, which I don't know, like it's just a little shoulder jacket. Right. If, if you ever Yeah.

Because tank tops were popular at the time too. And I'd wear them to school a lot with a tank top.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. And also the photos from that night. You can tell who's Mormon or not because we all have shrugs. I do remember that night being kind of appalled at some of the dresses that, that some of the other girls were wearing. And I know that we had this discussion about it because I'm like, that's not even on them that's on their mothers. Their mothers should teach them to dress better than that. Do you remember having that discussion? No. But it is so funny, and I should have told you this at that time, but I remember that night we went to McDonald's afterwards, like a bunch of us girls, and I dropped something on the floor and I squatted down to pick it up because I was in a dress.

And both moms were like, see how lovely that was? that was very lovely. see how she did that? And I was like, I am a princess. I did do that the most modestly, and that stuck to me in the point because that was important at the time, was to be seen as like this celestial woman or becoming a woman.

Yeah. You would've been so proud at that point that your daughter was the one that I've been so squatted to pick something up. I've, yeah. I thought I was protecting you, andWe'll have to do a different one about modesty. Let's just move on from that there's a lot there. There's a lot there. And you know, my perspective has changed on that a lot, but

I do remember that being very important. But I definitely saw you guys as an extension of myself and I knew that people would judge me by how you behaved and how you looked and what you were doing. And there was a lot of fear around that.

Like,

this is me psychoanalyzing myself at, at age 35 I couldn't have said that at the time. Right. Like, I was just living what I was supposed to live at the time.

but yeah, I was, I was very strict andI almost prided myself on being very strict. And I got a lot of positive reinforcement from my community about being very strict. everybody always said, how well behaved you guys were at church.

Did they really? So? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, I never knew we received compliments. I think I have like, too much like negative feedback from when I was a teenager from the whole word. Oh. That like, you just think that everybody said bad things about us. Yeah.

And it's funny because looking back on it, like, kids that misbehaved at church or were not. they're just a different kind of personality than my kids were. Right. My kids were always the kinds of kids that would just sit and read a book and, color a picture and not climb up and down, and run around the church.

and that's just a different temperament, right. That's not good kids and bad kids, it's just different temperaments. But-

Until your youngest, she was a climber and a runner. Oh, she was For sure. but yeah, I was very strict and very like I was controlling. I felt like it was my job to control these things.

And so I set up kind of crazy rules that we talked about last week and it's so funny because even like thinking back on those rules, like that didn't feel good at the time for me to set those rules. and I'm like, why wasn't that a red flag to me? But it was just, it was just very much trying to control your behavior.

I felt like it was my job to get you through high school and out of the house firmly grounded in the church. And then after that you can make your own decisions But I felt like it was my job to make sure that you stayed active and kept all of the rules all the way through your teenage years and high school and once you got out of high school and finished missions and temple and all of that kind of stuff, then you can make your own choices. Which is so funny to think now, right? but I just felt like that was my job. That was what I was supposed to do, was to make you guys be good kids.

I don't think that that was internal. I think that that was also externally added because like that is the goal is to go to the temple and as kids, your goal is to get to the temple. And as parents, you are shepherding your children to the temple. Which at that time means being an adult and getting endowed.

But you know, Like, it was my job to keep you safe from all of these things,and I remember thinking if I do everything that I can, then God will take care of the rest, right? so if I make sure that I have all of our scripture study and I make sure that we always do family prayer and make sure that we always get to church every week, and that my kids know that we go to church on Sunday, right?

And also I do remember really wanting you to know who Jesus Christ was and what he was like, and that he was our example of being loving and kind and good.Do you remember we used to have,during the sacrament I used to havethose little pictures of Christ and yes,

we would go through all of those.

Yes.

Just because I really wanted you guys to focus on. And know that this was the Church of Jesus Christ and not The Church of Joseph Smith or anything else like that. But that, that we were following the example of Jesus Christ.

I actually hadn't thought about that.

Like I've been researching more like how theology works in the Mormon church and like the theology of following like Joseph Smith or like where it's centered or God centered or Jesus Christ centered. And I do think that,Like if I think back, your theology was really Christ centered in what we discussed at home.

That was my goal Not that I didn't care about Joseph Smith or whatever, but my testimony was never really centered on Joseph Smith and and so I think that that's why some of the stuff didn't bother me as much about him because it was more about like, Jesus Christ is the example of a perfect human being.

so I was very strict and, I had really high expectations of all of us. . and then, our oldest child graduated from high school and chose not to, follow the path that we thought that they were going to follow.

And, my whole world broke,

like, the best way that I can describe it, because Brene Brown in her, book, the Atlas of the emotions or something like that. she talks about how, grief goes for your bones,

Like you just collapse. And I remember mm-hmm. just collapsing, my body just collapsed. And it was just like my entire foundation was rocked because I was just like, all of this stuff that we had done, God was supposed to fix it. Right? I had worked so hard for everything to work and this was not part of the plan, right? Like this was not okay. this was not how this story was supposed to go. And, I knew because God was perfect and God would do his job that I had failed.

Like I failed them, I failed you, I failed my ancestors. I failed, I failed everything. Right? I just had failed in every way possible. And um, and it just was like, I can't even, like, I mean, I think I went to bed for like three days. It was, I don't remember. I You probably,

I remember that.

It was just really at that point in my depression, I realized that like, the question was whether it would hurt you guys more if I was alive or if I was not alive. Like, I remember weighing that in my mind. If I was causing more damage by being alive or if it would be better for you if I just wasn't there.

andagain, it was all about me, right?like I think back on that and I'm just like, that child was hurting so much and all I could do was worry about what was wrong with me. And that that breaks me even now, that just.

And so, um, yeah, so finally I got outta bed and I just went about doing things, but then, you know, I'd failed there and so I had to double down, um, with the rest of it. Right. And I think I got much more fanatical at that point for a while.

I think, and I don't know if this will feel true to you, but I think what you're saying about like God is perfect so it must have been me kind of matches what was going on at the time, because I think you were looking for the cracks. Where do we, where do we seal this up?

Yeah, yeah. What have I not been doing enough of?

Yeah. Because that's when we started having rules, like all of our electronics had to go into your guys' bedroom at night.

We couldn't have them.and, and I think just things like

based around what was going on With my oldest sibling leaving.

Well, and in my mind still, it was like, I know if you would just do this, if you would just stay on this path that we've set for you, then you would be happy, right? Then you would be happy and we could be happy and everybody could be happy.

And, the reason that you're not happy is because you're not doing the church thing, right? And so like, yeah, I just doubled down on everything. . and so then for the next two years, that was what was happening between you and me, right? I mean, I think it was like I was strict on you before, and I then I think at that point I was just like, no, I have to keep her in the church. I have to keep her in the church. And, um, that was my whole focus, right?

Yeah.

And, um, yeah. And I hurt you. And I'm sorry.

I love you.

And my, my reaction is to say it's okay. And I know that that's not the right thing to say, but I think I should say like, I do forgive you.

Thank you.

And I do find you worthy of compassion. You know, if I could go back and hug, you know, 37-year-old, you, I would,

because I think that was a hard time for all of us, you know? Yeah. Because we, we did have like this family unit. And when they left, it just felt like this family was broken and what's the point?

I think it hurt all of you in different ways mm-hmm.

Like them leaving hurt and then my reactions hurt and it just was, it was a very broken time for all of us.

And I don't think that I was, I just wasn't able to be there for any of you in the ways that I should have been there for you. I should have been more focused on, you know, healing your hurts than, focusing on how broken I was.

Anyways, so, um, it just became real apparent at that time that I needed some help, right? and so of course I turned to general conference talks and Different fireside any recording of any apostle or anything like that. And I did find some very comforting things and some very good things,

that helped me to get my feet back under me and I get moving again and get, at least functioning. but it was a while. it seems like it was a few months that I just, I really don't have memories of because I was just trying to, struggle to even breathe, to even function, to even get through the day.

um.

I think also for clarity, they didn't just leave the church, they left and were no contact with our family. At this time.

Thank you. because that, that's a good point. I,

Because they don't want it. Like this reaction wasn't just the severing of that sealing tie, but also it was thecomplete obliteration of that relationship and like the no contact of it all.

It was tough and you know, and their story is their story. I don't want to share any of anything that would be uncomfortable for them, but I'm sure that it had a lot to do with the same things that you struggled with, right?

With, with us being really, really strict and really, really controlling and, um, so yeah. Anyways, so like I said, it just became clear that I needed to find some help. And so I found a therapist online that was LDS because I needed somebody who had the LDS perspective.

Because I knew that other therapists would be just like, well, what's the big deal? You know? And it was a big deal. and I needed somebody that understood that. And she was very helpful. it was good because we had like phone visits. She was in Utah, but she was licensed in Nevada as well, and so she could do visits by phone. And so that was helpful. and the thing that she taught me that I had never really considered before was, I think they're called the 13 thought distortions or whatever.

Have you seen that? It's, it's part of CBT but it talks aboutthe fact that our brains don't always tell us the truth. Mm-hmm.

But it was the first time that I was introduced to the idea that my thoughts were not reality. Like, that sounds so stupid for me to say right now, but that I shouldn't believe everything that I think-

Well, this was 2013 too, like 2013, 2014. So it also wasn't as big of a conversation culturally either,I don't think a lot of people had access to that unless they were seeing a therapist. But just the idea that my brain could actually lie to me, That I could be wrong. It's so, it's so funny, right?

Because we all just think we're right all of the time, and then when we figure out that we're wrong, we just change our minds and then we think we're right again. . It's like, that's just fascinating to me that that's how the brain works.

so that was my first introduction to that, and she was very helpful for a little while and then it just got to a point where it wasn't as helpful anymore. It just,I've heard other people's experiences that it helps for a while and then it just feels like you're kind of stuck and spinning your wheels and just going over the same things over and over again.

And so then, I found my life coach.Her name is Jody Moore, and she has a great podcast if anybody wants to look that up. But, she's gotten really big since then. Like a lot, a lot of people follow her now.

And she's,written books but she was really just getting started then. And she introduced me to she called it the model. And it was just a way to examine what you were thinking and evaluate what you were thinking,

And so, the idea being circumstances just happen. Circumstances are just like the plain facts that everybody can agree on, and then we have thoughts about those circumstances,That we are the ones that make up the meanings in our lives.

And that was just like revolutionary to me. the way that that, that laid it out for me was just like, oh, wait, okay. I think I'm a bad mom I don't even think I'm a bad mom. I know I'm a bad mom because I feel like I'm a bad mom and I can tell you all of the things that I've done I can prove it to you that I'm a bad mom.

And the idea that it was like, oh wait, also, it's also true that I'm a good mom because I've kept all of you alive for all of this time. I mean, I took you to the park and I made sure that you were fed and there were good mom things that I did.

you don't have to defend that you were a good mom in a lot of ways.

Well, but that, like, that's, that's the thing and then the next part of the model is whatever meaning you assign to things makes you feel a certain way. and the way we act is based on how we feel.

So, like me thinking that I'm a bad mom makes me feel terrible. Then I come up with all of these hyper controlling rules to try to get myself to feel better and then that makes me a bad mom. it just kind of cycles like that. Or when you're feeling terrible and constantly like,I know that was kind of the era of arguments ending with I'm sorry, I'm such a bad mom.

And like, you feeling terrible interferes with your ability to show up as a mom. Yeah. And so that was just revolutionary to me. And it's funny to think about now because it seems very obvious, but it wasn't to me at the time. It really wasn't obvious to me. So I got really into like examining my thoughts and feelings like that and I think that that was actually more towards the time that you were going to college. I remember that.

And so then when you were talking more about leaving the church, it was not as terrible as the first experience because, I mean, it was still hard.

like, there were still bad feelings between us because how strict I had been with you. . And we just butted heads so bad. like you just have always been a strong-willed person and knew what you wanted. And knew, Like I can remember when you were like four years old. This is one of my favorite, defining stories about you.

I, the story.

You remember the story?

Oh, I don't remember it happening, but I know exactly what story you're about to tell. I think I know because I tell my stories over and over again, but I'm gonna tell it anyways.

But, I had been trying to teach you to tie your shoes, and you were just getting so mad at me. You were just like so irritated that I was trying to help you tie your shoes, and you just did not want my help. So finally I just walked away, walked in the other room and thought, okay, well,when she needs help, she'll come.

And you just came in with your shoes tied and just like beaming,that beautiful, beautiful Kimberly smileAnd you were so excited. You're like, I did it and you just threw your arms around me and gave me a big hug. And that's like, so much our relationship, right?

Like, yeah. So funny but you like to figure things out on your own And you don't want my help, right? like there's definitely been times that you've explicitly said, I don't want your advice on this. Thank you. I love you. Like, I think that you've gotten better about, or maybe more mature about just saying,

I'm gonna figure this out.

And I think that that's okay,because you know your mind And you always do, you always figure it out.

so over the next few years, like after I had learned this kind of revolutionary idea of questioning what I'm thinking about,questioning my own stories and really choosing to decide for myself what I wanted to believe rather than just what had been handed to me and what I'd assumed to be true all of my life.

there were several things over that next several years that happened that really changed what I was thinking about. I worried that, we would deal with homosexual issues and um, LGBTQ issues.

And so I really thought, okay, I'm gonna get clear on what I think about this and what's going on. And so I started really listening to, some stories about, the lived experience of homosexual people in the church.

I think like the, better word now is queer. Yeah. Well, and it's just funny to say because I don't usually say that now, but that's what I would've said at the time. Yeah. So I don't know why that's how my brain is just wording that right now.

But anyways, so I started really looking into LGBTQ issues, and I found so many stories of kids who had started to have those feelings- and usually they were stories told by mothers or fathers or whatever- that had started to have those feelings, and like their first reaction when they began to have same sex attraction or whatever, was to double down on all of the church things, right? Kind of just like I had done. To like read their scriptures more and pray more and be the best Mormon that they could be. And we actually had a close family friend that kind of went through those things And that was very, very hard to watch because they did that, they were trying to be the best Mormon that they could be.

And, then they would go on their missions and think, okay, if I do everything that Heavenly Father wants me to do, then he will make me not gay. And that just didn't turn out to be true. And even people that would come home from their missions and get married in the temple because then that will fix it and it didn't and they were still having those feelings. And so I was like, okay, something is really wrong here. This is not loving, this is not okay, how we are treating these peopleAnd especially because,so many suicides, right?of people that were having feelings of same sex attraction- and that's how they would've put it at the time because they were trying to overcome them- and, not being able to overcome those thingsand then killing themselves, That's like, it just really made it clear to me that something is off here. There's something going on that's gotta be fixed.

The way that we are handling this in the church is not right. It's not okay.

and then, one of my children,went on a mission and really struggled and ended up coming home early. And that was a huge struggle, for me and for them.I think for all of our family, but, I think that you were mostly out of the church by that time and were-

I was out and I remember being very upset at how that was handled and being very pro. What do you mean you need to come home? Like you have to come home. It'll be okay. Do not stay.

Yeah. And you know-

and being really upset because I didn't know all the details at the time and when I found out all the details, I was like, what do you mean?Like, I don't wanna get into details, but-

But it was handled really badly.

I was upset. Yeah. And I was really upset that I didn't know how bad it was. Because if I had known,you know, because I wanted to be supportive of them on their mission. And not-

Because that's what they chose to do.

And like wanted to be loving. But I think I would've reached out at that point and been like, it's okay to come home and it'll be okay and if you choose to leave the church, it'll be okay. And this is not worth it. Frankly.

And I mean, because information was withheld from us as his parents and there's still a lot of anger about that, That a church leader would be so, um, would put other things above the life of my child.

And I was very, very angry about that. and that was a hard thing because it was like,this is a very high person in the church. This is a person that the church really trusts. And they did something that made them very not trustworthy. and so that kind of changed my perspective on things too.And I wanna make it clear at this point too, that I do love the church and I do not have any intention of ever leaving the church. but I do not have the same perspective of like, like I, I don't always trust everything that happens in the church. I don't think that everything that happens in the church is right. I think that the church is capable of harm and h as inflicted harm. and I think that we need to be realistic about that

if the church is going to be a force for good in the world, I think that we need to reckon with the ways that it has caused harm and still has the potential to cause harm, you know? But I think next week we had down to talk about what we believe now, right? so maybe we'll get into it some more there, but my perspectives have changed a lot over the years, Just in understandinglike at this point, I know why I stay in the church.

And I know why I still continue to choose to participate in it. And I love it. There are many, many, many things that I love so much about the church but no, I don't think that it's perfect and like I said, I think that

there are just things that, I don't know anymore Um, we are a church of I know that this is true And I think that that gets to be dangerous, right? Because when we don't question what we know, then we don't really, we can't really say that we know it, right?

If we don't really think through it and, question our assumptions and question how we know what we know, then we can cause a lot of damage and we can cause a lot of hurt,

If it doesn't havedeniability, you also can't, fully trust it,

AndI think that there's a lot of harm that happens in this world in general by people knowing things or thinking that they know things and acting on that knowledge and causing harm

So next week we'll talk a little bit more about that and about what we believe now and how we know what we know. And, um. And this has been long, huh? I mean, the last one was long too, but I, yeah.

But I think it's kind of important to introduce who we are and what we're about, So, all right. Well, next week Yeah, we'll talk about what we believe now, where that aligns and where that's different.. But I love you so much. I love you too. Bye bye.