This is us editing at the end, but to insert early on that,we're gonna get into some things about sexual violence, um, sexual assault, and also feelings around suicidal thoughts.
this is just a trigger warning at the beginning that that might not be for everyone to listen to. But, if you do decide to stick around and stay,we'd appreciate your compassion as we go through the story.
Hi, I'm Kari.
I am Kimberly, and this is Coffee & Cocoa, a conversation about how to reconstruct your family after they've deconstructed their faith.
We're a mother and a daughter sharing conversations from both sides of the faith divide.
All right, so,
so today we decided to talk about your story. and last week you, you said something about, at what age did I think that you'd started deconstructing and started thinking about leaving the church.
Mm-hmm.
And I hadn't really thought about it until... I don't know why that brought it up for me, but I'm really interestedto hear the story, but I'm also,a little bit nervous about it, right?
Because-
Yeah
we haven't ever really done this before-
No ...
where you just tell me your whole story.
No. And, um, this week, because I was, like, sitting down and thinking, "Okay, what am I gonna say?" Like, how do I tell this story? I realized that I've never told this story in complete.
And, um, like, it's really emotional for me, so it might be a weepy time discussing this.Like, I thought it would be,funny and silly to kind of, like, reflect on and talk about, but it was, it was really hard.
But I did put, quite a bit of thought into Reflecting on like when did this start and where did it come from and like how I actually felt about it in a way that wasn't just like taking care of myself, like dissecting it-
for my own feelings, but dissecting it more to like explain to, current members what it's like to leave.
Yeah.
Because also, I'm sure you've heard this, but it's really popular for people that are ex-Mormon or post-Mormon- ... to talk about it as their shelf breaking. So like- Yeah
they'll talk about all of these things about the church-
Like things that just don't quite fit. Yeah ...
people are like, "Ugh, I don't feel great about that."
Mm-hmm. "
But I still believe in the church, so I'm gonna put this on my shelf."
Mm-hmm. And eventually you get so many things on your shelf that it just completely snaps, and I definitely have felt that, and I also know a lot of people who are currently Mormon that are like, when they hear that analogy, they're like, "Yeah, like I do have some things on a shelf that like-
Yeah, for sure well, and the idea is, that we'll figure that out later, right? Yeah. but yeah, I've heard that many times that, you know-
Yeah
that shelf gets too many things on it, and then it just can't hold them all, and it's like, okay, we're done.
Yeah.
And I think too, like a lot of religions teach, this idea of lean not into your own understanding. Like-
it's a very smart closing of a loophole of like, well, you're just not gonna understand everything and you have to trust someone else or something else-
Mm-hmm
other than like your own feelings about it.
Yeah ...
to be fair, when you're raising children, you can't explain everything to them all at once,And so like it makes sensewhen you're raising kids that it's like, okay,you don't understand that right now, but you'll understand that someday, right?
And so, I mean, it's not a good strategy to continue your whole life with, for sure. And I can see why that's challenging. But, but it does make sense as a parent raising your kids because it's like, I can't explain it to you right now, but you'll understand it someday, you know?
I just think that's, with fewer things than we pretend it is, you know?
Probably.
I think when I reflect on my life so far, like the times that I've really gotten into trouble or gotten into bad situations were when I wasn't trusting myself and my own understanding and my own intuition. Yeah. And I was going with usually what a man told me, you know, like- I understand what it's like to be in the church, and understand what it's like to feel the, well, I need to trust something bigger than myself. But I just really push against that as,one of my own policies for my own life of, like, if you can't understand it-
Yeah ...
and you can't research more to understand it, like you can't come to an understanding, it's questionable.
that's a really good point. particularly if it, sends up red flags for you or- Mm-hmm pricks your conscience or whatever, if it feels wrong, yeah.
Yeah
that's very accurate, so.
Yeah. And next week we're gonna get into your story, so I'm really interested
because I know that your life hasn't been without questioning the church.
Yeah.
you know, I actually do remember, like, you and Dad talking to me at one point, and both being like, "Yeah," like, " we're not just following this blindly." Like, we have questioned the church before, and you both have had those individual understandings.
Yeah. So I'm interested to see where your story begins. But, like, if I think of- ... shelf items, I think the very first time that I at least questioned the church a little bit was when I was doing my baptism interview. Oh. You know Going back to what we were talking about last week about how you and Dad, like, really did raise us in a faithful household.
Like- Mm-hmm ... scripture study was a priority, and family prayer happened consistently. And- we did family home evening, and everything that we talked about related to the church. And it was just a huge part of our lives, and I think that,when you're a child, like, one of the things that really bothered me in the church was when they're like, "Oh, have faith like unto a child because a child believes."
And it's like, yeah, children believe what you tell them to. Like- ... at a young age-
you know, I'm believing you that there's a country called China, and this is what it looks like. Like, I'm, I'm believing the adults around me that that's true. I've never seen it. And so when you tell me that there is a God, and that he watches over me, and he loves me, like, I believe that.
I learned how to pray before I learned my ABCs. Like, of course I think that that is true.
Yeah. '
Cause I have trust in the adults around me, and every adult around me is telling me that this is how the world works.
like, that is where I was, is, like, full belief. And I think that, like, I sat down with the bishop, and I remember who our bishop was at the time.
I loved our bishop and his wife. They were so sweet.
Oh, yeah.
And I remember sitting down and him being like, "Okay," like, "do you choose to get baptized? Do you choose to receive the Holy Ghost?"
. And I was like, "Oh, do I choose this?" And I was like, "Yeah," Oh ... "of course I do." But I remember specifically sitting in the sink in your bathroom, and you were doing my hair- and having a discussion with you about, "Oh, I didn't know that you chose to get baptized." And you're like, "Yeah,""we choose to do this because of our faith."
And I remember asking you at the time- ... "Well, what if I didn't wanna get baptized?" And you saying, "Well, that would be okay." And like- Yeah ... we could discuss it, and like, being like okay, and having me like, yeah, like, I make this choice. Like, this is a choice I wanna do. and I don't think at the time I would have had, like...
Like, I was eight. I, I don't think I would have had enough to be like, "No, I don't wanna do this." But I remember that was the first time that- Like, I felt like this is the choice I'm making.
Like, the other things I remember about my baptism is, like, who I got baptized with, like, who, who else in our, stake was getting baptized that week.
Yeah. And like, I remember wearing,a dress to be baptized in instead of a jumpsuit 'cause we borrowed one from, like, a close family friend. Mm-hmm. And I remember that Grandma brought me a pink sparkly dress that was, like, what I changed into after my baptism, and that it left glitter everywhere I sat, which is very good for me.
Um-
I know you were always all about the glitter.
Yeah, I really liked the, the pink butterfly. And like, I remember who was there, and I remember Lots of things. But, but yeah, I do remember that conversation at the time, and I think that was the first time I had any inkling of like What would it look like to not choose this?
And-
Yeah ...
but, like, that was very minimal. Like, I was eight. Um- Sure ... and I think that, like I feel defensive of, like, people think thatpeople that left the church must have not really believed it all along. Mm-hmm. So I am defensive of, I did believe it, and I did really hold fast to it- Mm-hmm
even through, like, a lot of different trials that came up. and even when it was inconvenient to believe in the church, I believed in it. and the ultimate decision to leave was not a, fluke or I wanted to sin or, like, it was like, "Eh, I guess I just won't do this anymore." Like-
Yeah ...
so I, I think I'm a little defensive of that.
But after being eight, I think the time that, like, I started, like,tugging on the rules was when- Mm-hmm ... I was 12. Um, like, that's when, like, I got a boyfriend and, like, at school. And I remember I'd be like, "This is my phone number,"
"But you cannot call me 'cause my parents or my siblings might answer. I have to call you." And, he wasn't Mormon. Like, it, it wasn't even... I don't even think I liked him. I think I just wanted a boyfriend.
Uh-huh.
And, like, I remember that was, like, the first time of, like, having things to hide from you and dad and having, like- Mm-hmm
a bit of rebelliousness. But, like, I was still, like, beehive president and I still went to church and I still, like, pretty much believed it. I just, like, was like, "Well, some of these rules are dumb."
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I think at that time too was around the time that I read your journals from when you were my age, and I was like, "Well, Mom had a boyfriend, so-
Oh
it's fine."
Oh, I still question that decision to let you read my
journals. Yeah.
So the other hard thing around that time-
Mm-hmm ...
was I was a very good journaler, and you found my journal, and I got in trouble
for having a boyfriend. And I threw my journal away and I did not start journaling again until I was, like, an adult and moved out.
Oh.
So I kind of... I mean, yeah, it's not but I do remember that. I mean-
Yeah. I just need to say in the beginning of this that there's a lot of stuff that I'm sorry for that I wish I had done differently, right?
but I don't want to be, on the defensive through this whole thing because these are all things,
that you wish I hadn't done. But there are, are many, many, many things that I would do differently and that I feel like I didn't do very well. Mm-hmm. so I'm not gonna keep saying I'm sorry whenever you say stuff like that, but I also don't want you to, like, feel like-have to pull your punches
Like-
Yeah. I guess I should have said that at the top is this isn't gonna be pulling punches because I know that we've discussed- Yeah ... a lot of this. I know that you would do differently now.
Yeah.
Um, I know that you made different choices with my younger siblings, but it still, like, affected me at the time.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. And I guess, the underlying current of this is this is the start of a pattern that went through all of my middle school and high school career where your reaction to me breaking the rules created such a divide in us that, you know- Yeah ... while we've repaired our relationship, like I don't get to be 13 again and have a good relationship- Yeah
with my mom. And if there was someone who was in your position that could- Yeah ... do differently, I would want them- Yes ... to know the effects and want them to know that, like, it's not worth it. And if your child has a boyfriend or a girlfriend or is gay or whatever, whatever they are doing is not worth ruining your relationship with them.
And it is not worth them not feeling safe in their home, and it is not worth breaking trust with them as a parent because the fact that, like, there were big reactions to things like finding my journal and finding out that I secretly- had a boyfriend, like I'm not gonna come to you then when a 23-year-old is messaging me on Facebook telling me I'm sexy, you know?
Yeah. Because I don't trust you to be on my side. I see you as the- Yeah ... disciplinary and the policing force in my life and not as like a adult that's there to guide me or help me through tough situations.
Yeah. I think that that's a really important part of the story because if I could go back and talk to, you know, the mom of 13-year-old Kimberly, I would definitely,tell her the same thing, right?
so 12 was also like when we started taking temple trips and, um- Mm-hmm
as of this month, there'll be a temple in Elko, Nevada, but before that- Mm-hmm ... we had to go to Salt Lake City, so we'd take like temple trips. And I fully did that, and I fully believed in it, and I fully thought that it was something important to do. Like, I remember the full name of the person that I was first baptized for the dead for, like on behalf of.
Um, yeah. Her name was Kate Kelly. Really? I don't remember anything else about her.
but like I, I like remembered it and cared, and like- Yeah ... fully felt like I was doing the right thing.
Yeah.
And felt the Spirit and felt all of those things. but like I was like rebelling a little bit here and there, but like, you know- Mm-hmm
I'd pray and repent, that kind of thing. Also around this time was when Dad became bishop, which- Mm ... changed our lives a lot. And-
Yeah ...
I think that he was a good bishop, but he also worked full-time. And in the Mormon Church, you're expected to do your calling for free- Mm ... on top of working full-time, and he was working to support a family that had six kids, and then also like having to leave in the middle of the night to go pay for someone's gas, and like having to meet all through Sunday, which was like one of his days off.
And- Yeah ... it was just like i- very difficult, and I don't blame him because I know that he was helping people, and I know that like he was doing what he felt was right. But I do dislike that part about the church. I dislike that there is an expectation for you to give so much-
Mm-hmm ...
in addition to like what you already have to do to like support and love your family.
Yeah.
And I just feel like he, you know, he, he was instructed to put his family first, and I feel as though he did. But there's only so much you can do to juggle all of these responsibilities, and that was hard.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
And to his credit, like, I think that there was a time when I was in middle school that, like, I was like, " Dad doesn't say he loves me, so he doesn't love me."
And like- ... that was, like, a big deal. And he is not a man of many words, and he was like, " You know I love you, and these are the things I do to love you." And ... I think even for a while he was taking me on, dinner dates that were just me and him. Like, we went to Taco Bell once and, like-
just spent time together because, like, I made a big stink about it, and he did take it seriously. He's like- Yeah ... "Okay, my daughter doesn't think I love her." Yeah. And I, you know, that was an interesting situation. But him being bishop was also really difficult because I just felt watched all the time and judged all the time.
And there were people that, like, would tell you and Dad that I was being promiscuous on Facebook, and I needed to- Mm ... take things down because it was on their son's Facebook. And- stuff like that where like- Yeah ... I think particularly that situation were pictures of me on the last day of school with my friendsin a classroom.
Like, we were fully clothed in a classroom- Yeah ... and I think we were just, like, making faces, and she was like, " That was promiscuous, and I can't believe that's on my son's Facebook page."
Yeah, I do remember that.
Um, it just felt like I was responsible not just to having my ownparents and their rules, but, like, every other parent's rules, too-
and how they expected their kids to act, and it was annoying.
and then when I was 13, turning 13, I think, around that time, something happened that, like, I don't want to get too far into, but- Mm-hmm
it involved purity, and it- Um, wasn't, like, completely consensual, but I didn't understand that at the time. And I think that for myself, how I reasoned that this happened was because I was bad and I'm a bad Mormon, so I might as well just be, like, Jack Mormon at the time- Mm-hmm ... what they called it, of like, I'm Mormon, but like I'm not gonna follow the rules because, like, I've already done this anyway, so like what does it matter?
Mm-hmm. Um, and that wasn't, like, a great space for me. Oh, that was the other thing that I was gonna mention of what was going on at the time. So I was entering Young Women's. In the same year that I entered Young Women's, they changed the Young Women values. So used to be when you were a young woman, you would recite,
this thing every Sunday, and, You would promise to live by certain values. Mm-hmm. And, um, the values are faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and the year that I came in, they added virtue.
Which the first time I heard it, I was like, "Okay, these are virtues, and one of our virtues is virtue, so I think that, like, maybe they're telling us it's good to have virtues or to live-
Mm ...
to virtues." Like, I didn't fully understand it, and it became very clear to me that this was just a PR word for chastity.
Like
they felt like it was really important to drive home that they should be chaste You put
another plug in there, yeah.
Yeah. Which, like, I don't-- We can get into it later. I love a lot of those values, and I still consider them core values for myself.
But virtue was one that I was like, oh-
Yeah ...
they're slut-shaming us. They're just making it- ... sound friendlier.
Oh, ouch. Yeah. Interesting.
So with that being said, the Church has a new focus on telling women to be virtuous, and this thing has happened to me where I'm not virtuous anymore, and I just felt- Mm
really bad. And, and this is on top of, again, constantly being brought down about every little thing I did, like being called promiscuous when I'm not doing anything- Mm ... and having comments about the length of my dresses when You know, you leave your dress extremely modestly. Yeah. So the fact that, like, things that were me-meeting your standards were still being, like, picked apart by other women was really difficult.
And-
Yeah ...
I think that when people are like, "Oh, they left the Church 'cause they wanted to sin or they got offended," or things like that, like, all of this happened to me at a young age, and I still believed, and I still felt like The Mormon Church was true. I just felt like- ... I didn't fit in it anymore.
Yeah. Um, so my eighth grade year was really difficult. That was, like, the year that, um, I got slut-shamed a lot at school- Mm-hmm ... because I didn't understand this thing that had happened to me, and I was also having boyfriends at the time and not, like, really, like, being responsible with people's feelings 'cause I didn't know how to date or how to, like, be a responsible girlfriend or, like, treat, significant other with respect.
And so, like, I would, like, date guys and break up with them and date their friends or, like, stuff like that that, like... You know, when you're 13- Yeah ... there's, like, all the drama and, like-
Oh, yeah ...
anyways, it led to, like, like, I was in this friend group, and they wouldn't talk to me. But then, like, if I wanted to go make friends- Mm
with other people, they'd, like, make fun of me. And so, like, I would, like, be in their friend group but, like, sit at lunch every day and be, like, quiet, and nobody would talk to me, and it was just, like, an extremely hard year.
Yeah, I remember that too. Yeah ...
and then there were other things because, because then I wasn't following the rules at all, and I didn't- Mm
know where my values were. Like, I hadn't really reconstructed my own values. My only values were relying on the church, so if I wasn't gonna follow the church, then, like, it doesn't matter if I lie or I'm mean to people or-
Mm-hmm ...
anything like that, so I wasn't my best self. And then, like, I was doing things like texting boys and sending them pictures in my tank top, which was so scandalous.
Or I think one time I sent a picture in my bra or something like that, and every time that you would take my phone or find out about this, it was, like, the end of the world, and I- Mm ... was constantly grounded, and there were things like, I remember you showed up during cheer practice 'cause you said, "I can't trust you.
I can't trust you to be alone ever, so I have to watch your cheer." Or it was cheer tryouts, and then I didn't make the cheer team, and then- Mm ... like, everyone knew my mom was super strict on me and, like, wasn't cool, and so then I wasn't cool, and nobody wanted to be my friend. and, like, it was just, like, really bad and explosive and, like, I wanted to die.
Like, like I just didn't wanna be alive. And, and it was hard because there was no safe space at that point.
Like, I didn't feel- Yeah ... like I felt like the church was true, but I felt like I didn't belong in it, and I felt like I can't come home and feel p- peace because- Mm-hmm ... my parents are always mad at me and think I'm a liar. And wow, this is so weird. This is like 15 years ago.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Yeah. Like, and I just felt like school sucked and, like, I couldn't be around anyone there and, like, I just...
It was just, like, the hardest time. And, um, coming out of that, like, I was like, "This is all your fault," and like-
Yeah ...
this is because you didn't follow the rules. And, um, Heavenly Father's not answering your prayers because you don't deserve it. And so, oh, sorry.
it's really heartbreaking to hear about,
Because I-- like I remember this, this period of time very well, and
I just didn't know how to get through to you or how to, communicate with you, to be honest. it's weird to think back on because again, like, if I could go back and say, "Look, I just love you so much no matter what is going on with you, no matter what you're going through.
I, like, I, I wish I could go back and be a safe place for you. that breaks my heart that home was not a safe place.
Yeah, and I guess, like, I feel like I'm really putting myself out. Like, this feels really vulnerable, but I Like, one of the big problems I have with the church is the suicide rate, especially among teenagers who have experienced sexual assault- Yeah
and teenagers who are gay or queer or transgender in the church. And I don't think that I fully understand what that experience is like for every child in the church, but I do think I understand that as a human, you have to have a place that feels likea break. Um-
Yeah ...
I don't think that you can be sheltered from every hard thing, but you do need space where you feel like you can breathe and be yourself and feel loved and feel okay.
And I think- Yeah ... that for a lot of teens in the church, they don't have that because the church is in their home, and the things that the church teaches, they hear from their parents, and so they assume that their parents believe everything the church says. Yeah.
I think if the church could be better, one of the things would be, parents understanding that it's more important to create a safe space for your child than to make sure that they're following the rules exactly.
Yeah. I absolutely agree with that. And,
there needs to be an unconditional love and acceptance no matter what kids are going through, no matter-
Yeah. And I wish I could have... Like, if I could go back and parent myself or- Mm-hmm ... advise you through parenting me, I think I would say, like sending photos of yourself in a tank top is not great.
And like, it's not like-
Yeah ...
what you want your daughter to be doing. Mm-hmm. And there's probably self-esteem issues around that. Like, there's probably more if you dig there that isn't great. Sure. But It's not worth feeling terrible over. It's not worth feeling unworthy over.
Mm-hmm. And a reasonable reaction to that- Mm-hmm ... would have meant that, like, the first time, like, someone sends me a graphic picture, I can come to you and be like, "Look, like, I don't understand this. Like, I can't-
Yeah ...
process this. Like, I, I don't feel like I was deserving of this on my phone just because I sent a picture of myself in a tank top or like-
Yeah
was flirty." You know? I, I wish that, like, I had had more guidance through that.
Yeah.
But because I wasn't supposed to be dating, I couldn't even talk to you about relationships at all. Yeah. And I couldn't talk to you about how boys were treating me or about how I felt about certain times when, like, yeah, I wanted to kiss a boy, but, like, I didn't.
Well,everything. And like- Yeah ... I think in general, society has a lot more discussions now around, like, consent and things like that. But, like-
Mm-hmm ...
even now, if your child doesn't trust you enough that they're gonna tell you that they kissed a boy, they're not gonna tell you when something bad or worse happens.
Absolutely.
But after all that, I still believed the church was true, and I still thought- Um. ... that this was the right thing. Mm-hmm. And I felt like it was my fault. Like, um, I felt like, no, I feel this way because I'm not in tune with the spirit, and if I work harder and I'm a better Mormon, then- Mm-hmm.
this will be better. And it got to the point where, like, I remember there was a challenge that the First- Mm-hmm. ... maybe the First Presidency or the Quorum of the Twelve put out to, like, pray every hour on the hour. Like, while you're at school, like, you should be in constant prayer, and I did that. Like, I would, like, say a silent prayer every hour- Mm.
on the hour
I would say, like, "I'm so grateful, you know, that that class wasn't hard," or, you know- Mm-hmm. ... "I'm grateful that my family's protected," or whatever. Like, you know, even when I didn't have things to ask for-
Yeah ...
like, I'd just do, like, prayers of gratitude, and I was doing that so frequently. And then I also went to EFY.
Uh-huh.
And I don't know if you remember this, but I came home from EFY and I just felt like kind of the narcissism that comes with the church a lot, of like- ... I'm now so good and I'm doing the right things, and do not interrupt me doing the right things. Like, if you have a bad attitude with me or whatever, you need to be better or, like, you need to be- Oh
practicing more of Christ's love. And, like, just felt like I could do this the best way, and if I kept doing it the best way, then bad things wouldn't happen to me.
Mm-hmm.
And I remember too, like, having friends, like, as I was starting high school and, like, explaining like, "Yeah, like, I used to, like, be a jack Mormon, but I repented and I did the right things and,I feel really bad that I did that and I'm so grateful for repentance," and you know, all those things.
Yeah. And like, again, like, truly believed in the church and truly was doing the right things.
Yeah.
And like I, I was always late to seminary, but like I went to seminary. Like I was- Mm-hmm ... I was really trying to do the right things. But I also think that because I had messed up in the past and because I had friends that weren't Mormon, and I had dated people before that weren't Mormon, um, I think I just was like not as judgmental all the time.
Mm-hmm. But I think I was really judgmental of you and Dad, and like, "We have to have a Christ-like home, and don't you yell at me. Like, that's bad," and things like that. Mm-hmm. And I was trying to like really be, like, immersed in the gospel at all times
Yeah.
But I was still learning more things and putting those things on my shelf, and also kind of like testing the boundaries in other ways. Um, but, like, was fairly good.
But I remember too, like, really having a bad relationship with you and Dad at times, because even for Mormons, you guys were very strict. And I think that on your guys' end, you were trying to be the best and trying to make sure that your kids were good kids. And I think that you saw some older kids, like, in our ward make mistakes, so you were like, "Okay, how do we prevent this?
Well, we add this rule." Mm-hmm. And I'm talking about rules like if I wanted to go out with friends and there were boys present- Mm-hmm ... there had to be more than two of each gender, and there couldn't be an even number. And that just led to straight lying to you and Dad,
Because if I went out and, like, one guy friend, who is gay now, was there, like, then I'd have to make up that somebody else was also there. And I would be like, "Oh yeah, these people are here," and they weren't.
Or like, " These people aren't here," and they were.
Yeah ...
and not even because, like, I wanted to do anything bad, like I wasn't making out with boys. Mm-hmm. But because I didn't wanna have to go to my friends and be like, "Oh, can we, like, not invite so-and-so?" Or, " Oh, we tried to invite three boys and none of them can come, so I can't hang out with..."
Like that was just dumb.
Yeah.
So, like, I would just lie, and I really hated that. Like I, I didn't have any trust between me and Dad, because then he'd find out that I was lying, and every time, no matter what was going on, if it was a lie, it was like a huge deal.
Yeah.
And I'd get punished, and like I just felt perpetually, like, in trouble.
Um, because there was just, like, these nonexistent set of rules in trying to, like, make us good kids.
Yeah. I remember having that rule and thinking like, this is really kind of a ridiculous... Like, I knew why we were doing that rule so that you weren't dating one-on-one or that you...
But, I remember thinking that was a really complicated, And kind of frustrating expectation to put on you as far as like- Mm-hmm ... numbers of people that could be together and, you know, making sure that it wasn't just one boy and one girl or, you know, it wasn't a double date and all of that kind of stuff.
And yeah,
And also, I'll have you know, now that I'm old enough, that there were times that I did meet that standard, where there were like four boys and five girls. Like, I remember specifically going to see the Pirates of the Caribbean movie that was coming out at the time.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh. And two of them did make out. So the rule did not stop people from doing the things they wanted to. It didn't. We just had other people there as witnesses.
Yeah. Right. And that's like, yeah, and that's the thing, like looking back on it, is that, that I was... trying to control your behavior.
And yeah.
Yeah. So- Mm-hmm ... um, kind of skipping a little bit 'cause I kind of... You know, like I kind of rebelled sometimes, but then I repented. I still believed. Like-... That was kind of a lot of high school until I was 16, or until I was like 16 and a half. . Because when I first turned 16, I was dating a Mormon boy who was like a good Mormon boy and like wouldn't give me more than a peck and like was like-
Uh-huh
it was very chaste. And like-
we went on double dates and we, you know, did the whole like date this person on a double date and then date someone else in between and then, then you can go on a date with the person that- Yeah ... you see as like your romantic interest again. Mm-hmm. Because if you keep going on double dates and your date is the same person, then you're dating dating, and that's not okay.
yeah.
So like keeping track of all these rules, but When I was 16, I started having, like, more cognitive dissonance around those rules and the other rules in the church. Mm-hmm. And, like, I had really good friends that weren't Mormon that were having sex and were fine people and good people.
And, I had friends that were coming out as gay, and I was like, " I don't feel like I should have to see them as a sinner."
you know, I always felt like standing as a witness of God meant that I had to tell them that it was wrong, and I didn't- Yeah ... wanna do that. ... and so there was some cognitive dissonance, and I also, with my very chaste Mormon boyfriend, was kind of ready to explore other things
I just, yeah, started dating someone who wasn't Mormon.
And around this time, you and Dad started accusing me of having sex, and I wasn't, and that was really upsetting. Um, because- Mm-hmm ... I think that because I was at his house more often- Mm-hmm
and I was in a relationship with someone who wasn't Mormon, that you figured that that must be going on. I don't
know. Yeah, I mean, I think we did.
And that wasn't at the time, and I wasn't ready to do that at the time, and I knew that.
Yeah.
I think we made out. Like I was,
happy to do that, but I wasn't going further than that. . And that was because of my own choice, not because, like, the opportunity hadn't presented itself. So when you guys were so sure that that must be going on- Mm-hmm ... that just broke any trust left. And you know, there wasn't a lot anyways.
I think that we were getting back in a pattern of, it always being a fight and never having a conversation that wasn't a fight.
And I didn't at that point trust your guys' guidance because you guys came up with really stupid rules. And it felt like there was a measurement of obedience and not a measurement of if I was a good person or not.
Mm-hmm. And
I was extremely frustrated because with this boyfriend at the time, he, like, openly made fun of the Mormon Church multiple times in front of me. And like- Mm-hmm ... I, like, had an argument with him where I was like, "This is what I believe, and if you can't respect it, like, we can't be together." Like-
Yeah
was very clear about that. But then to you guys- Mm-hmm ... I wasn't being a good Mormon.
Mm-hmm.
And to a lot of my friends that were Mormon and their parents, I wasn't being a good Mormon.
Mm-hmm.
And that really hurt.
And it just... Like, now I can be like, "That is so ridiculous," because when I did have sex, it wasn't that big of a deal and didn't change who I was as a person.
Mm-hmm.
But it really changed how everyone in my life reacted to me.
Yeah.
So back to what was going on in the church at the time. When I was 17 or 18-
Mm-hmm
the seminary class that year was studying the doctrine and covenants in Pearl of Great Price, which is related to Joseph Smith and church history. Mm. And this is also the year that the church came out officially and talked about the seeing stone. So-
Oh, yeah, okay ...
I am having this personal issue of having the cognitive dissonance of everyone in my life is treating me differently based off of this perceived thing that I have done that I have not done.
And now things that I know about the church aren't true. I'm like- Yeah ...
I was definitely taught at the time that Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon, and had all of the illustrations approved by the church that showed him with the plates translating.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And now all of a sudden we're hearing about a rock in a hat, which I had... You know,there was that episode of South Park that said that- Uh-huh ... and I was like, "These guys don't know what they're talking about. Like, that's not how that happened at all." Um- Mm-hmm ... so now that's true.
And also at this time, I started dating not just a non-Mormon boy, but a Black boy. Mm. And, I saw a lot of reactions to that that I didn't like from both Mormon and non-Mormon people around me, honestly, 'cause we grew up in- Mm ... a really conservative area. But the people in my family that had an issue with that- was a problem.
Mm-hmm. And I remember having to look up and specifically say, "No, the church retracted that, interracial couples could be sealed in the temple in 1994," but then I had the knowledge- Mm-hmm ... that that was ever a problem to the church.
Right.
And that it was a problem to the church up until 1994, which is three years before I was born, which was- Yeah
when you and Dad got sealed in the temple, which is, like, very recent in history. Mm-hmm.
And then I was also finding out about Black people in the priesthood- Mm-hmm ... and how Black men couldn't have the priesthood, which I thought was just a funny line in the Book of Mormon musical song.
Oh.
I didn't understand the full church history around that, and reading the letters to the First Presidency at that time-
Yeah ...
and the letters back saying that this would never happen, and that- Yeah ... God specifically, like,this is specific to the gospel, um, that alarmed me, and that added to the shelf.
And at that point, I was really faced with feeling like I don't really support a lot. Like, every time I tell someone I'm Mormon- Yeah ... then I say, "But I respect Black people, and I think gay people are fine," and like, I had to give all of these-
Qualifiers ...
disclaimers.
Yeah.
And I was also like, would always have to be like, "I'm not that kind of Mormon."
So at the time, like, I still... I was having all these issues. Like, my shelf was pretty full, but like I still went out with the missionaries. Yeah. I was still considering a mission. I was still considering getting endowed after I graduated. Um, but I was just having a hard time really, and like I felt like dating a Black man was fine and like- Mm-hmm
was like this is an issue I can't fight for the rest of my life, and I don't know. There was, there was a lot of angst around that.
Yeah.
And then I remember when I went to college, I was having a really hard time because I was like my parents have taught me nonstop about the church my whole life.
Mm-hmm.
But I'm now in my last semester of high school finding out that I don't know how to pay for college. I don't know how to get into college. I don't know- Yeah ... how to have a future as, like, a functioning adult, And also, there's no money for college because FAFSA says Dad makes too much, and Dad can't afford to pay for college.
And what am I gonna do? Mm-hmm. So I went to live with my grandparents in Vegas, and I remember going into that semester. We were shopping or something. You were like, "I'll buy you this shirt if you go to institute this year." Oh. It was like a $30 shirt. It was the worst deal I've ever made.
Did you
go-
And- ... to institute? Yeah, I did. Oh. I went to institute. I went, and I went to singles ward.
I went to the Foothills Singles Ward in Henderson, Nevada. Mm-hmm.
And
I also went to institute, and I just remember the whole time just like, I think the class that I took was like temple prep.
Oh. But it was actually like anti-gay rhetoric-
Oh ...
and, um, chastity rhetoric the whole time. The man that taught it- Oh ... was very much, uh, reciting the proclamation to the world and talking about how marriage is the most important thing that you can do as a woman, and-- well, marriage and having kids, and this is your role, and you need to be worthy for your husband.
And I just remember like sitting in institute every week and be like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no." Mm-hmm. "I don't agree." And I remember just eventually telling you like, "I'll pay you $30 for this shirt, but like this is making me want to leave more than keeping me faithful in the church."
Wow.
And I really hated that.
So I was 19, and I was living with my grandparents, and I was going to school, and I was, like, deconstructing a lot of things even outside of the Mormon faith. So I grew up, like, very Republican, and we were very Republican at the time, which kind of meant something different than now.
Yeah.
But I was, like, being exposed to all of these different ideas and, like, really saying, like, "Does that align with my values?" or has it just been the only reasonable argument presented to me? Like-
Yeah ...
has every time I've seen this information, it's made, like, the other side seem ridiculous. So I started-
Yeah
you know, deconstructing a lot of things, and I just kind of decided that I wasn't gonna be Mormon, but I didn't really wanna talk about it yet.
And this, I think, was around the #IamMormon campaign.
Oh, uh-huh.
Which was, like, a social media campaign about, like, making sure that you put "I am a Mormon" in your bio. But I remember,
we had, like, a whole lesson in singles ward about how that should be in your social media bio. Because when you are baptized, you decided to stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, in all places, and, like- Being a representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you're representing his name, and you'rerepresenting these values, and you need to be able to speak on it at any time, and you need to be living as a representative of the church.
And at that time, I was like, " The church doesn't match my values. I believe in equality between men and women. I believe in equality between different races. I believe in genderqueerness. I believe that gay people have a right to be married and-
that women can and should have sex before marriage, and that it shouldn't just be for procreation." And I just was like, "I don't think that this is matching my values, and I don't want to stand as a representative. I don't want- Mm-hmm ... people to see me and I say I'm LDS to think that I am homophobic and sexist and racist."
And that is how I felt about the church at the time, and that is not how I felt about myself. And I was like, "I can't speak to this, and I do not wanna represent it."
Mm-hmm.
And I still believed a lot in the gospel, and I still believed in God at the time, but I just was like, "I can't be a representative anymore, and I'm not gonna be a Mormon, and I'm not gonna go to church."
And that was, like, a big deal to me. And I, at the time, deconstructed what are my values. What- Mm-hmm ... do I wanna take from this? If I'm not a representative of this church, what do I represent? What, what's important? And the values of being loving and being kind and being generous and being nonjudgmental, and all of those things were things that were super important to me, and I looked at the church, and I looked at my life, and I said, "I can do this better on my own than with the church."
Mm-hmm.
Um, and the church is actually inhibiting my ability to love my neighbor and to be kind and caring to others and to always extend that compassion to others without the, qualifier of, well, love the sin but hate the sinner. Like, I didn't-
Yeah ...
need that anymore. I could just be kind and loving and supportive to the people around me.
Yeah.
and at the time, like, I still hadn't really, like, deconstructed from the church. Like, I was like, "Eh," like, "I'm probably gonna go to the terrestrial kingdom, and that's fine." Like- We'll work it out ... we'll work it out. It'll be fine.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I'm just gonna try and be a good person today.
Yeah.
And I don't think that that involves being LDS. And thenother things happened as I left the church. Um, and I think my shell finally broke as cliche as it was, like, I read the CES letters.
Yeah.
And I was, at the time, like, very much about doing my own research, so I was like, "Let me look into each of these things."
I read the Mormon apologetics on it. Uh-huh. I, like, fully read everything about church history. Like, I was really studying it.
Yeah.
And I was also in school at the time studying cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Had
a
class where, like, my entire semester-long project was on cognitive dissonance, and-
Mm-hmm ...
I just sat with myself, and I was like, Am I bending myself and what I think and my logic to make this true, or is it more likely that this was made up?
Mm-hmm. And that's when, that's when the shelf completely broke, and I was like, "It is more likely that this was completely made up." Mm-hmm.
And
that was really hard to sit with- Yeah ... because there was a lot of anger. There was a lot of like, "I've paid so much to this. I have felt guilty for so long. I have let people- Mm-hmm
treat me poorly over this and felt like it was my fault." Um, and I think there was some anger between us, and there were some other things that happened with my siblings that created anger between us.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I think that around that time was also when I finally told you. Like, I, I didn't wanna sneak away.
Like-
Yeah ...
I didn't wanna, like, be like, "Oh," like, "I'm gonna marry this person, and maybe in a year we'll get married in the temple." Like, I didn't wanna do that- Yeah, yeah ... thing with you. I just wanted to say, "I'm not gonna be Mormon."
Uh-huh.
But that's kind of when I deconstructed and when I, like, really decided that, like, it was never gonna happen again. Like,
I wasn't gonna come back if the church changed its stance on a couple of things. Yeah. And I also didn't feel like, oh, I'm gonna go to the terrestrial kingdom. I was like, that's when I started feeling like, oh, I've spent so much of my life preparing for an afterlife that, like, I don't believe in anymore, so, like, what do I do with my life now?
Yeah. Yeah.
And I, I've had- Yeah ... a lot of joy since then. I've had some, you know, hardships since then, but I, I do feel confident in my choice that I made.
Yeah. And
I still... You know, things have come out since that, like, have confirmed to me that the Mormon Church isn't true.
Mm-hmm.
And I haven't ever since that point felt like, oh, well, maybe it is true and I should come back.
Yeah.
But one weird thing though, I paid tithing for a really long time after I left the church. It took me a long time-
Really? ...
to feel, I feel like I felt almost superstitious about it, because the church cares so much about tithing, and there are so many lessons around like-- I remember my seminary teacher being like, "When you grow up, you're gonna see, like, sometimes you look at your bills, and the math doesn't work and you're going to think I can't possibly pay my tithing." He's like, "And you'll pay your tithing, and you'll realize that everything works out." And like, I just had like, I would have called it faith at the time. I think it was superstition- Uh-huh ... that if I didn't pay my tithing, I wasn't gonna be able to pay for school or pay for gas or like- Yeah
the things that I needed to. Like, I was gonna be poor. And
um-
Wow ... that didn't happen. When I stopped paying my tithing, I was okay. I just had 10% more of my money.
Oh, gosh.
But I did pay that- Yeah ... fully not believing in the Mormon Church anymore.
So interesting. I didn't realize that.
Yeah. When I tell other people that have left the church, they're like, "That was the first thing that went."
And I'm like, "Nope, they got my 10% for a long time."
Oh, wow. Hmm.
Yeah, interesting
That was a lot
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, does it feel good to like, get it out, or does it feel like, like, where are you at? Um
I know. Yeah. I think I love you, and I don't mean this in a hurtful way at all.
Mm-hmm.
But I really wish that I could go back and change things, because I don't think that any of it changed the trajectory of if I stayed in the church or not. And maybe, like, like, this was a conversation about my story.
Mm-hmm. And because it's a conversation about us and, like, how we have reconciled after me leaving the church, I felt like it was important to include all of these things.
Yeah.
But my decision to leave the church didn't ever come down to whether I followed the rules well enough or not. And I don't think that there was you and Dad pushing me too hard and making me leave, or you and Dad not pushing me enough, and so I left.
Mm. And I know that because there are people that have stayed that did the same things I did. Yeah. And there are people that have left that followed the rules better than I did. Yeah. And ultimately, all it did was damage our relationship-
Yeah
I would have loved to be loved differently growing up. Like, I would have loved to be able to talk to you when things happened And I just think that when it comes to parents going through that with their children, um, I think that you will never make enough rules to force your child to believe in the church.
And no matter how obedient they are- Mm-hmm ... is not gonna be equal to their faith or their belief in the church. Yeah. But it is gonna strongly affect your relationship with them. And our relationship has happened because we have done immense work in spite of what happened when I grew up.
Yeah.
But it could happen easier if we had a different relationship as I grew up.
Yeah. I agree. There's so many things I wish I would've done differently.
Yeah.
and like, it's hard because I can get stuck in that and really, um, because, ' cause what's done is done, right? Like, there's no way- Mm-hmm ... I can go back and fix that. Right? It's... And so all I can do now is just Do better
Going forward.
I mean, I remember you telling me, that when you left home you were not gonna be a part of the church. And,I just remember thinking, You'll change your mind.And like thinking that I was doing this for your own good.
like pushing you to go to seminary and like especially,
that last year pushing you to go to seminary knowing the teacher and like the expectations that she was putting on you and how she was talking to you and, and still thinking like, "No, she needs to be in seminary and this is the best thing for her to go," you know?
And I wish I could go back and not do that.
I feel like you're told all the time to have a celestial perspective, and I think that that gives you tunnel vision-
Mm-hmm ...
because it wasn't important if I went to a seminary. It hasn't added to my life at all. Right. But I would have loved to sleep an extra hour.
Yeah. I would
have loved to not get in fights with you and Dad.
Yeah.
And I would have loved to not... Like, I started every day with, like, a group of people that,looked down on me and, like- Mm-hmm ... made me feel, terrible about myself, and adults, like full-grown adults that were judging me.
Okay, so I used to think that if I did everything the church said like that that was the path to having good relationships, to having a good, strong family, and so I just tried really hard to do everything that the church said,
Rather than like evaluating and saying, "Okay, this is what the church counsel is," and understanding that
that is like the general counsel and it may not be best in every situation, you know, and it wouldn't have been best in our situation. And, and I don't think I ever gave myself the freedom to evaluate that of saying like, okay, is this going to be the best thing for our family, for our situation.
Mm-hmm
And I think too, like, the group think and the pressure-
Mm-hmm ...
adds to that. Yeah. I wish the most important thing would've been our relationship and my safety. Yeah. But, like, the safety of my soul from your perspective or-
Yeah ...
are we following the church or things like that took precedence.
Yeah.
I think that that's true, you said that before that, like, we were so worried about your eternal life that we were less worried about this life, right? I mean-
Yeah. 'Cause like- Mm-hmm ... I'm not even, like, anti-t- strict parent. Like, if you guys had- Mm-hmm
cared a lot about my grades or my ability to get into college,
that would've been actually helpful to my life now. Yeah. But like- you guys didn't care about that. And, and also I have a hard time because there were things where you guys were really chill parents. Like,I hit a car in a parking lot- Uh-huh
a parked car, the day after I got my license, and I didn't really get in trouble for it. Like, I got in trouble with the parent of the person's car that I hit. Yeah. And I felt really bad, and I, like, cried, and, like, you guys were like, "Eh, that's enough." And I... Dad literally, like, looked at me and was like, " I want you to know this is how much it costs, and next time can you hit a Ford or a Chevy?"
But, like, to me, that is a response where any time I had car trouble- Uh-huh
which sadly that was not the last time, we had enough trust that I could tell Dad, that I could be like- Yeah ... "I took it on the dirt road and I shouldn't have taken it on the dirt road," But because any time I went out with a guy alone and you guys found out,
it was so overblown- Yeah ... that, like, if I was in actual trouble or if something bad happened to me where I did need adult help- Yeah ... I was on my own, because there's no way that I'm gonna come to you guys about that.
Yeah Lots of things I would go back and fix.
Yeah.
and I feel bad because, like, even saying that, it sounds like a cop-out, like
I don't know what the appropriate thing is to say other than I'm sorry.
Yeah ... I think that we've fixed our relationship, and I think that there are times that, like, you've, like, with my younger siblings, that you did do differently. So none of it is meant to make you feel bad because I think that as much as that can be solved, it's been solved.
But I just- if there's a parent now that is acting this way, I would love to put it on their radar. Yeah. Because like one of the things that like I still digest in therapy that's really hard for me is like you got to be a different mom to my two younger sisters and to my younger siblings in general.
Like, you got to go back and be like, "Hey, I made this mistake. Let me do this different." Mm-hmm.
and you did get to have different kinds of relationships with your children when they were teenagers, and I will never get to redo my relationship with having a mom doing differently in high school.
Like, that's ended- Yeah ... and that's over, and we've addressed it and healed it as best as we can. But like the hurt is serious, and I would love for parents to understand that.
Yeah. Yeah.
And there's no amount of sorry or, um, changing now. Like, there is enough that can change our relationship and definitely like I feel like- Yeah
you are worthy of my forgiveness and of a good relationship with me, but like n- neither of us can ever go back in time no matter how much we would want to- Yeah ... and heal that.
Yeah. That's fair.
And that's, you know, hard.
Yeah, it's sad
and there was plenty of good, and there was plenty of love. Like, it wasn't like it was always bad, but there was a lot of just, like, bad feelings in our home in general.
I do remember, like, the fight that we had in the church where, it ended with you throwing my shoes at me, was I told you, "If you keep acting like this, none of your kids are gonna talk to you." Yeah. "Like, we're all gonna leave, and we're never gonna talk to you again."
Mm-hmm. So that was after my older sibling left and didn't talk to you guys at the time.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think I was right, andI don't think I was right in saying that to you. I think that was mean, but I think I was right in that evaluation. I think that if things hadn't changed, that none of us would-
Oh, yeah
talk to you.I agree with that. Yeah, and we'll talk more about my experience, uh, because, you know-
I, I mean, I was dealing not with just with you, but with five other children as well, you know?
Mm-hmm.
but I do think that things had to change. Like, I had to grow and I almost feel bad 'cause I think, maybe you were just the one that had to come and, you know, make me see the things, and that's not fair,
I should've been more of a grown-up or
more emotionally mature. Mm-hmm. And, but At the same time, like, sometimes I look back on my life and think, "Okay, how would I have learned that?" Like, what other thing in my life would have taught me that?
Mm-hmm.
Does that make sense? Like- Yeah ... I don't know.
No, because we've had this conversation before, that you and dad were doing what had worked for your parents.
And- Yeah ... both of your parents raised, like, your parents raised four kids, and dad's parents raised nine kids, and they all, went on missions, got married in the temple, did the right things according to the church. Mm-hmm. And the level of strictness that they put on you yielded those results. Yeah. So why would you do any differently?
But then you were thrown into this generation of parents that are parenting kids on the internet now. And like- Yeah ... the whole world is changing, and the things that worked for your parents don't work- Yeah ... with every type of child. But we were different.
It was,you were different as people, and the time that we were raising kids was different, and-
Yeah.
Yeah ...
and all these weird rules that we talked about there were two other families in our ward that we were very close with.
Mm-hmm.
And those rules were, like, collective rules. Like, those were things that you and those parents talked about, and- Yeah ... we all had the same rules, and they had kids my age.
And their children-- like, one of these families, all of their kids stayed in the church. And another one, like, it's like half and half. And, like, in our family, all of the kids have left the church. SoAgain, it didn't change the outcome.
Yeah.
I don't know. And, and, and you were doing what you thought would yield good results.
And I think from your perspective, there were things that your parents, like, told you that you didn't like at the time, and later you respected as an adult.
Yeah. And we can talk about, more about that when we get into my story, I guess, next week. But yeah, I just-- I think that, the takeaway for me, is that, and maybe this is just repeating what you said earlier, but that, like, we have come to a good place, we do have a good, loving relationship now.
But yeah, If I could go back, I would do things so much differently. I think that what I would say is that I was very much parenting out of fear. Like, that would be the tagline that I would put on it now. Like, I was so afraid that you were going to leave the church,
that I was trying to control everything, and if there's other mothers that are parenting, teenage daughters that are super willful and super independent and,
just, uh, have their own ideas and just seem like they're rebelling against you all the time, that it is not your job to make them be good. It is your job to make a safe space for them and to make Oh, to make a place where they feel loved and accepted and, um And I didn't do that for you, and I'm sorry.
And I hope that- It's okay. It's not. It's like you said, it's one of those things that just will never be okay. It's not something we can ever fix. But I'm glad that we are where, where we are now.
Mm-hmm.
Andif that can, you know, help any other mothers out there, just
Um Yeah, it's your job to love them and not to make them something. Anyways, this was very interesting and a little rough, but good. Yeah. Right?
Yeah. It was hard.
Yeah, and you were very brave. I'm proud of you.
Oh, thanks. I, I love you a lot, and when we talk about the hard things, like, I do remember the good things too, and there were good things
I know. And I love you a lot, and
I love
you
too.
Yeah
All right. Well, next week we'll talk about, things that I learned and things, like, just from my perspective,
Yeah. Your journey of having all your kids leave the church.
yeah. '
Cause I think with each child, that was like a different-
yeah ... a
different experience.
Yeah.
And still is, I think, with each of you.
But thank you for sharing your story, and for your vulnerability and for, just extending that grace and understanding I mean, I think that you understand on some level that I was doing the best that I could, and the best that I could at that time was pretty terrible, and I'm sorry for that.
Um
But all we can do is move forward from here, and forward is good, and it has been good.
Yeah.
So, so thank you, and I love you.
I love you a lot
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